Author Topic: Wish us luck!  (Read 2446 times)

BoxerWB

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Re: Wish us luck!
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2009, 11:44:03 AM »
Yes, I was pleased she didn't seem nearly as scared/intimidated by the environment this time. More like wary/alert but (outside the ring) willing to have some fun.
Julia
Delta 03/12
Dash 07/06
Shady 07/05
In my heart: Xena 03/10/03 - 02/16/12

Renee

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Re: Wish us luck!
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2009, 07:19:41 PM »
Thanks guys. No Q, but we did better today than earlier this month.

You'll get there - Just plan on working on her focus on YOU until the next show.

Competing with dogs in these rings (Obedience, Agility, Rally, etc.) is a process.  You fix one thing, you break something else.

Example - Last weekend I showed Josie in Utility.   

Prior to this, She and I have been having serious attitude issues on the Drop portion of Signals (heeling without talking).  The heeling is fine, I signal the stand, walk across the ring, and she looks at me and says "No.  I don't feel like dropping." So I have to give her a verbal (which is an NQ on signals), and then I'm mad at her, while she does the rest of the exercises quite well.

So I fixed it.   Now, I know she'll drop.  But I don't quite know where it's going to come back at me.

So back to last weekend...

We start with signals (it's Utility A, so you always start with signals) We're heeling, turn left for the fast down the center of the ring, and Josie is now 2 feet behind me, where she remained for the balance of heeling.  It's not an NQ, but about 6 points off.  :brood:

I leave her on a stand...walk across the ring, and get the best Drop-Sit-Come she's ever done.  So I fixed that part, but paid for it with her pouting leading up to it.

And then qualified up until her last exercise (her favorite and mine) Go outs. I send her out across the ring - she's fast, she's straight, perfect sit, as the judge gives me the "high jump" I think "Shoot!  Which one is the High!?!?"  Pause, then give her the High command/signal, and she goes - stops - and sits there wondering if I'm SURE that's the right one, since I stood there in my 2 seconds of indecision.

Until the next show...it's always something...

BoxerWB

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Re: Wish us luck!
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2009, 07:28:05 PM »
Renee - Are there any specific exercises you'd suggest to work on her focus? You know I'm horrible at figuring out the right exercises.. my natural inclination is "watch me" stuff and that's what got us here.  ;)  The turn and drop exercise you told me about w/Dash except on her 6' leash? Or something else?

When she's paying attention, her performance of the tasks is quite good except some crooked sitting tendencies.

I've started working w/food nearby rather than on my body - she get praise then I either make her stay while I go grab food or have her come along to get her reward. Only bad habit that's occurred so far w/that is when we do it in the house, she forges when we are going towards where the food is.  ::)  No shock there, if she forges I keep going right by.
Julia
Delta 03/12
Dash 07/06
Shady 07/05
In my heart: Xena 03/10/03 - 02/16/12

RocketBoxer

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Re: Wish us luck!
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2009, 09:01:15 AM »
Julia, how many different places are you going to train - and places with lots of distrations? I think that can make a world of difference - especially with a dog that is struggling with distractions.
Kerry
Mom to Skye, Trigger, Leia and Lizzy
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GypsyMystic

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Re: Wish us luck!
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2009, 05:07:00 PM »
Sorry I didn't make it over to cheer and offer some moral support Saturday, we got to doing stuff around the house and time got away from me. At least the drive up on Friday, for practice probably helped out with getting her a little used to the building. I'm sorry I didn't know ahead of time that you were coming, I could have let you know that space is tight for trials. (I haven't actually been in the building for an obedience trial, but can pretty much guess there wasn't alot of breathing room.)

Maybe when you are practicing in the house, you could stash the treats in a few different places(without her around) then she won't know right off where it is, so might not forge as much.
Margaret
Gypsy RE, NA, OAJ, OF, CGC  8/10/03
Mystic OA, OAJ, OF, CA  CGC 5/12/06
Stryker Can/UKC CH Winmere Only Time Will Tell CA 3/8/09
Carly  Mystic's baby 7/26/10
Abby  Stryker's baby 12/15/1

BoxerWB

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Re: Wish us luck!
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2009, 05:47:01 PM »
Kerry - Being winter, our options are kind of limited. We're working in the house and at the livestock pavilion ("open practice" occurs during our class, darnit). Xena's a wicked priss about the weather so even if I had the inclination to brave the elements, she'd revolt. We had to push her out to potty for half the winter  :dizzy2: forget sitting or laying down out there!  When it warms up there is a local strip mall/plaza I train at and I could take her around to some local parks for practice.. but that's at least 6 weeks away according to Phil  ;)

Margaret - No worries. On Saturday, at least, you wouldn't have had a place to park anyways! I got up there late morning 'cause I figured I could watch a little of Excellent and all of Advanced... drove around, found a spot I thought might work, watch Rally for about 20 min, then got warned I'd be towed, decided to go find lunch and gas up the car. By the time I had a legal parking spot, it was 1pm and we went into the ring at like 2pm.
Julia
Delta 03/12
Dash 07/06
Shady 07/05
In my heart: Xena 03/10/03 - 02/16/12

Renee

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Re: Wish us luck!
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2009, 11:40:29 PM »
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Are there any specific exercises you'd suggest to work on her focus?

Read through some of these and let me know if it's doable:

http://www.dogtrainersworkshop.com/default2.asp?active_page_id=110

I personally like the drop and turn, but I've never done it on a flat buckle collar, so I can't say if I think it's a good idea or not -

Quote
I've started working w/food nearby rather than on my body - she get praise then I either make her stay while I go grab food or have her come along to get her reward. Only bad habit that's occurred so far w/that is when we do it in the house, she forges when we are going towards where the food is

Good - It's a nice habit to have, since it is so similar to finishing up in the ring, putting on the leash, and then going somewhere to celebrate your pending green ribbon.

Don't worry about the forging...if you want to, when she forges, do a quick left 360 right into her so you have to back her up, and then PRAISE when she is in position - make a game out of it. 

In fact, make a game out of everything - she'll think you're cool  :cool:

Bobe

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Re: Wish us luck!
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2009, 01:29:11 PM »
Renee

that is a great link.

thanks

BoxerWB

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Re: Wish us luck!
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2009, 09:01:51 PM »
I've never used "correct" corrections w/Xena before (I did stupid stuff w/a nylon choke when she was younger.. didn't work, of course) so it'd be a new learning experience for us both.

Question 1: This seems sort of like the positive reinforcement exercise where you hold a treat out in both hands and click/treat when the dog looks at you, then move up the requirements for how long they have to look before you click/treat. I did this with Xena to train the watch command, but never really did the increased time requirements. Is there something about the correcting version that makes it better/more effective? I feel like there might be something a different effect, but can't identify what it is.

Question 2: How long are you supposed to have the dog keep eye contact? In the first article, where you are face-to-face, it says to correct when the dog stops looking at you. How long would you start out making her hold the eye contact before you end it? In order to work into heel position, do you just slowly adjust her position until she's by your side?

Have to say, the "soft" side of me feels sad to see the word "offended" in her descriptions of the correct connection. I don't want to offend my dogs if I don't have to.  :confused:
Julia
Delta 03/12
Dash 07/06
Shady 07/05
In my heart: Xena 03/10/03 - 02/16/12

Renee

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Re: Wish us luck!
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2009, 09:23:26 AM »
Quote
Is there something about the correcting version that makes it better/more effective?

Well, if I forget to preface anything with "IMO" it's in error, because it's all Opinion as to "better" or "more effective".  Remember, I've done this and taken it to a titling level with a clicker alone.

By using a correction, I feel the choices for the dog become easier to understand.  I think that teaching the dog to be responsible for their own actions and feeling good about doing it, is easier.  And faster. 

And it's not just that it's the "correcting version" because regardless of if you correct the dog with a tap on the head or a leash pop or both, OR if you give it an "Ooppsie" and start over, or do nothing at all and wait for the correct response, you still

-Increase the time you have the dogs attention
-Increase the level of distraction in the environment

Those 2 elements are part of everything, every step, every level, every training session.

Quote
Question 2: How long are you supposed to have the dog keep eye contact?

Instead of thinking of it as eye contact, think of it as attention.  Eye contact is physical.  Attention is cognitive.  And it's not a number, but if I had to put one on it, look to the next step - moving attention.  If I'm moving and I'm teaching this new, than I would look at how long would I expect moving attention in a green dog?  About 10 paces (or 5 seconds). 

So with stationary, I would probably expect 10 seconds, and then add distractions, go back to 5 and work up to 10, make the distractions MORE difficult, and see if I needed to go back to 5 and up to 10 again.

Then pivot halfway to heel, feel it out as to where I have to back up in order to be successful, work through THAT until I have 10 seconds of attention WITH DISTRACTIONS, and then in heel...lather, rinse, repeat.

Get to 10 seconds in heel with distractions, and you are ready to move, and she understands what will happen when she makes the choice TO pay attention, and when she makes the choice NOT to pay attention.  And respect that about your dog.  She's a thinking being, let her be one, and let her be responsible.

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In order to work into heel position, do you just slowly adjust her position until she's by your side?

Go back and re-read.  It's in there.

Quote
Have to say, the "soft" side of me feels sad to see the word "offended" in her descriptions of the correct connection. I don't want to offend my dogs if I don't have to.

That's where we all make decisions for ourselves. 

I put another video in my photobucket from a few weeks later with Anja in attention training.  In the first 25 seconds, I think I counted 8 or 9 corrections.

http://s195.photobucket.com/albums/z91/rbasye/th_Anje20070805.jpg

Is she "offended"?  Sure.  After all, she does fix herself, and that's what I'm trying to do.

I think I read "offended" a WHOLE lot differently, but I don't know. 

If it makes you sad, then totally not for you.  I can show you what I do and how I do it.  Whether I'm right or wrong from a morality standpoint is probably a discussion for another thread.

blynn03

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Re: Wish us luck!
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2009, 10:34:23 AM »
I tried to go to your photobucket link to your video...and it wasn't working for me.  It brought up a pic of the first frame, but then there was no where to "click" to get it to play.   ???
*Brandy*

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Renee

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Re: Wish us luck!
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2009, 12:10:55 PM »

blynn03

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Re: Wish us luck!
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2009, 01:10:55 PM »
Yep, it works!  :thumbsup:
*Brandy*

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BoxerWB

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Re: Wish us luck!
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2009, 06:22:02 PM »
I guess it depends on how you read the word, my initial read was thinking of "someone's just insulted me and I'm offended" - maybe I need to think more in football terms: the "offense" is what motivates and moves towards the goal, so the leash correction is like the defense stopping you - you figure out how to stop that from happening again so you can score. Does that making any sense or are my post-op drugs messing w/my logic?

(BTW, want to be sure to state that I don't think morality is in question, just approach/philosophy. The training you do w/your dogs may not be for everyone, but it's definitely not something to be called "immoral")

I'll have to wait until I'm off the post-op drugs to try any of this (and re-read that article more clearly), but I was actually thinking maybe I would dig out Dash's prong collar to start work on this with Xena. I don't feel I'm very apt at giving leash pops on a flat collar and I might feel less apt to over-correct if I'm using a hand "flutter" on a prong. What do you think about trying her on a prong for this exercise?
Julia
Delta 03/12
Dash 07/06
Shady 07/05
In my heart: Xena 03/10/03 - 02/16/12