The Boxer muzzle

[markwantsaboxer]

I might have mentioned this before, but I am interested in a number of bully breeds and their standards, so I have been researching along those lines.

I came across a debate on a forum dedicated to the American Staffordshire Terrier on the proper length of the muzzle in that breed, which effects their performance, especially in warm weather.     The breed was compared to the Boxer, and if you scroll down on the following link you will find two pictures of Boxers, and two further pictures comparing the Boxer to an AmStaff.

http://www.amstafftalk.com/the-amstaff-muzzle-t3378.html

The Boxer in the second picture, which is used in the comparison with the AmStaff, is said by some in further posts not to meet the Boxer standard in terms of his muzzle shape and size and is thus atypical. 

Is this the case?   

The dog otherwise looks awesome to me.  I want that dog!    

[BoxerWB]

Hard for me to say for sure, but the nose might be lacking turn up and possibly a little long. It's hard since the photo is at an angle instead of from the full side.

The best example I can think of to show a head (and without any white to mess with your perception of length) is Ch. Jinxx's Burlesque Dancer - we're very fond of our Zorita girl!  If I remember correctly, the ABC was going to use her head in one of their pamphlets.

http://jinxx.us/Zorita.html

[aquagirl900]

Julia, what about Z's head is so special?  Obviously she's a beautiful dog, but compared to say, Trigger (who I find absolutely perfect!) what does she have the he doesn't?

[BoxerWB]

Jaime - As I said, Z's a good example for this purpose because you don't have any white messing with your perception of muzzle length. Trigger has white on the top of his muzzle, so (for me at least) it is harder to really see the muzzle length. I'm trying to make it easy for Mark to see.

I can't give you a blow-by-blow because I think both dogs have nice heads, and I'm not an expert on the finer points.  But Z is an easy example, especially since she's been recognized (beyond our forum) as a good example of the boxer head.

[jinxx]

Aaaaw, shucks 
Thanks Julia

yes, Z's headstudy was used for the Judging the Boxer Booklet put out by the ABC

Here are the headshots that Jennifer (newcastle) was kind enough to draw on for demonstration





Z's head isn't perfect and does have its faults, but still a good representation of a good boxer head

and Aqua-Yes, Trigger has a gorgeous headpiece as well 

somewhere, we had a lengthy discussion on this forum on headpieces and muzzle proportions (I gave up looking, but it was started by Hanna Banana)

also, the worldwide boxer site is a great refrence tool for learning
 http://www.worldwideboxer.com/head_measurements.html

[BoxerPerson]

Well I personally think her head IS perfect...and Triggers is too

[Vintage Boxers]

I personally think the dogs that are compared to the amstaffs in that link are either houndy, or just plain ....ick.

To long, not enough "turn-up" and even maybe narrow esp. the fawn dog.

LOTS goes into a head assessment but i dont think any of the amstaffs i have met could be compared to a NICE boxer head!

[BurningRiver]

I agree. You can find specimens of a given breed and compare them with specimens of another breed at the exact opposite of the spectrum and find similarities within any breed. I could probably find a photo of a Boxer and compare it to a Boston Terrier or an English Bulldog as well.

The boxer depicted could use a shorter muzzle, the planes of his head are off, he needs more push, more rise of skull, more chin (he/she doesn't appear to be undershot at all), a better stop, eyes that are more set on front and a more elegant neck (or a larger head, take your pick). He/she has nice dark eyes, nice pigmentation, clean cheeks and a nice high earset and he/she's very clean under the neck (which is a good thing!) where as lots of Boxers have lots of dewlap going on there. When all of these things combine, yes, we can see similarities with the picture of the AmStaff they posted, but even they admitted that dog wasn't the best example of their breed.

(That aside, whoever posted the pic obviously Photoshopped the Boxer's ears and the back of his/her neck. Who know what else they changed.)

[Shaeward]

(That aside, whoever posted the pic obviously Photoshopped the Boxer's ears and the back of his/her neck. Who know what else they changed.)

I believe the Photoshopped dog is the same as the stacked fawn dog further up in the post...

[blynn03]

It also looks like they photoshopped the front of the muzzle...but that could just be the black of his mask blending in with the black background.  Either way, they've altered the look of his muzzle.

[Shaeward]

I think it's the flews...they're black and disappear on the black background.

[BurningRiver]

For some reason, I hadn't seen that pic in the thread. . . Not sure why, but I swear it wasn't there.

Regardless, that dog is a puppy. . . No wonder he's going through funky head stages. Precisely my point, however--you can find specimens of a given breed and compare them with specimens of another breed at the exact opposite of the spectrum and find similarities within any breed. . . Especially if he's a puppy at funky head stages. 

[markwantsaboxer]

How does the current Boxer muzzle compare with that of the original standard?

Here is the original standard:

http://americanboxerclub.org/images/idealhd.jpg

Isn't this original muzzle considerably longer?

[Shaeward]

The original standard is here: http://www.harvelboxers.com/1902-1904.html and length of muzzle wasn't mentioned. When the Boxer was first developing, the standard was pretty vague. As the Boxer moved closer to what Breeders were trying to create, the standard was able to be revised. You'll notice much more detail was added to the standard with the first revision in 1938...Boxers were evolving so a more specific standard was able to be written. Even still, there was no official length of muzzle until 1989.

The first Boxer was registered in 1904...considering that, the breed really isn't that old and was still in the developing stages when the ideal head shot you posted was considered 'ideal' (Which I believe was of a real dog and not so much of the perfect head the founders had in mind.). The Munich Silhouette is the original blueprint of the perfect head (http://www.worldwideboxer.com/style7.html)...you'll notice even way back then the perfect head had a muzzle that was pretty close (if not exact) to the 1/3rd length of head our present day standard describes.

[markwantsaboxer]

In that 1902 breed standard, it is stated "The corner of the eye, which lies halfway between the nose and the occipital bone, should not be pushed in under the forehead as it is in the Bulldog."

That would seem to be considerable longer muzzle than the current standard calls for.