Author Topic: Treats at trials??  (Read 1547 times)

Christen83

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Treats at trials??
« on: July 19, 2007, 02:51:47 PM »
Are treats allowed in obedience or rally trials?  My impression is no, but I was trying to find it in the requlations and OMG are those things long.

Also I wasn't clear in the regulations on signals and commands, can you only use one or the other but not together?

My trainers are urging me to get into obedience trials with him before I start on agility...

BoxerWB

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Re: Treats at trials??
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2007, 02:55:49 PM »
No treats in any AKC "performance" event as far as I'm aware.  I know you can't in obedience, heck you can't even use treats in CGC.  Point is to have the dog trained well enough not to need bribery  :laugh4:   Only place I'm aware of treats being allowed is Conformation, since you see handlers baiting the dogs into stacks with them, etc.

Renee will probably chime in, but it's my impression it's better to just go straight to agility if that is your real interest, because agility and obedience don't really have that much in common?  I mean, the dog has to not run off on you, but otherwise there aren't sits or heels in agility, and there are very, very few jumps in obedience, etc.
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Hanna Banana

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Re: Treats at trials??
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2007, 02:59:31 PM »
No, no treats are allowed.  I do think what what I have seen you can use hand signals as well as verbal commands.  

Toys and or treats are not allowed in any of the competitive rings I have seen.  Confirmation yes.

-----

You will need some if not alot obed. for agility and there is one spot in competitive agility that you have to make your dog sit for a certain amount of time.   Its not as simple as just running thru a course jumping over and thru things.

Yes they are totally different, but they also coinside with each other (IMO).  You need a great deal of control over your dog in agility and most of it comes thru the foundation work. 
Heather  - Mom to Hanna Banana & Kash

Christen83

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Re: Treats at trials??
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2007, 03:03:06 PM »
Yeah, I know obedience and agility are two totally different animals other than needing your dogs attention and being able to get him to do what I want, I figure at the most basic level you're giving your dog commands and they're expected to respond promptly and correctly.  For some reason they keep telling me to take him into obedience trials, really I wouldn't mind doing both, I just never expected him to be interested in obedience, maybe they see something I don't.  I planned on taking him through advanced obedience classes before getting into agility training anyway.

I gotta work on the treat thing either way.  People keep complimenting his attention in class but really it's just b/c he knows I've got that treat.  He isn't really praise motivated.

Hanna Banana

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Re: Treats at trials??
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2007, 03:12:18 PM »
Obedience training is an important foundation for agility as it will teach your dog to learn, and on the opposite side of the spectrum, agility increases their obedience proformance.  Also your dog's safety can rely sometimes on his/her recall, a solid stay, and other commands learned in obedience.

Most people compete in both.  I have heard this quote before...

Quote
The control of obedience bleeds over to agility -- the fun of agility bleeds over to obedience.

 

« Last Edit: July 19, 2007, 03:24:31 PM by Hanna Banana »
Heather  - Mom to Hanna Banana & Kash

Hanna Banana

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Re: Treats at trials??
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2007, 03:18:36 PM »
With our obedience we went thru
Puppy I
Puppy II
Intermediate
Adult Good Manners I
Adult Good Manners II

Some Private training to work on stuff we were not too solid on and now we have started with private agility.   Hanna is not treat motivated but sure is with her favorite tug toy which out instructor said was a good thing.

Find a toy that really gets him going.  Use that toy to teach him.   Like when we are doing the tunnel.  Hanna really wants the toy.  But to get the toy she needs to do something I want her to (this is when clicker comes in use and is good).   What i want her to do is go thru the tunnel.   At the end of the tunnel is the toy and we will play (when she does it) for a bit, then its back to work.    Within 5 minutes I can get her to know that if she goes thru the tunnel, we are going to play.  That 3 minute play session (tug and praise) with me is far better than a stupid treat.

Maybe you can try to work with somewhat of Bruce's fav toy?
Heather  - Mom to Hanna Banana & Kash

Newcastle

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Re: Treats at trials??
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2007, 03:23:07 PM »
No, no treats - the Obedience Regulations state

Quote
Handlers who carry or offer food in the ring or discipline or abuse their dogs in the ring must receive a nonqualifying (NQ) score.

About signals, they state

Quote
when these Regulations mention a command or signal, only a single command or signal may be given. Any extra commands or signals must be penalized. When these Regulations specify command and/or signal, the handler may give either one or the other or both command and signal simultaneously. When a signal is permitted, it must be a single gesture with one arm and hand only, and the arm and hand must immediately be returned to a natural position.

and

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If a handler gives an additional command or signal not permitted by these Regulations, the dog shall be scored as though it had failed to perform that particular part of the exercise. This includes giving a signal or command when none is permitted or using the dogís name with a permitted signal but without a permitted command.

Rally is different - the Rally Regulations state

Quote
Unlimited communication from the handler to the dog is to be encouraged and not penalized. Unless otherwise specified in these Regulations, handlers are permitted to talk, praise, encourage, clap their hands, pat their legs, or use any verbal means of encouragement. Multiple commands and/or signals using one or both arms and hands are allowed; the handlerís arms need not be maintained in any particular position at any time. The handler may not touch the dog or make physical corrections. At any time during the performance, loud or harsh commands or intimidating signals will be penalized.

The Rally Regulations don't mention food, but I'm sure it's not allowed.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2007, 03:27:07 PM by Newcastle »
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Christen83

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Re: Treats at trials??
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2007, 03:32:18 PM »
Thanks for the quote on treats, I must have skipped over that when skimming the regulations, I was skipping the parts where it said we couldn't abuse the dog  :confused:

BoxerWB

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Re: Treats at trials??
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2007, 03:40:06 PM »
Just curious - Have the folks suggesting obedience mentioned that they think Bruce has an aptitude?  'Cause it seems like some folks just think you start there and work your way up.  While I plan on going up to CGC classes w/Dash, I think anything beyond into obedience would probably bore the hell out of him, so I'm moving on to pre-agility after that.
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Hanna Banana

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Re: Treats at trials??
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2007, 03:51:58 PM »
Christen -

I am sure Renee will provide 398% more knowledge than this but we were told to repeat Adult Good Manners II before even thinking of Agility.   This was the class that I was not too keen on the instructors.

I then was referred to an instructor (Agility) who I went back and forth with on our obedience training history.   We then did an eval to see if she really needed to go back, or she was ok to start learning foundation work.   When I took her they said she was absolutely fine and we were ok.   So maybe if you are not using this instructor for agility you can get an eval from one you want to see how Bruce it.   It would just suck to repeat something if he does not need it. Know what i mean?
Heather  - Mom to Hanna Banana & Kash

Christen83

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Re: Treats at trials??
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2007, 03:58:33 PM »
Well it's just the instructor for this class at the club.  I don't have to take her recomendations and she's not being pushy about it, just really thinks it is the best path.  I'm sure they wouldn't let me go into agility at that club just yet, but I'm not comfortable that we're to that level either.  Right now I'm teetering between taking basic again and moving on to advanced.

He has all the basic commands down already I just feel like he needs more practice with the environment before we progress.  I really need to watch the other classes before I make my decision, but I can't while I have Bruce with me.   :idea: I can go in on Wednesdays (Bruce's off night) and watch the classes.  Why didn't I ever think of that before  :wall:

Renee

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Re: Treats at trials??
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2007, 06:21:14 PM »
Quote from: Christen83 link=topic=5758.msg87631#msg87631

I gotta work on the treat thing either way.  People keep complimenting his attention in class but really it's just b/c he knows I've got that treat.  He isn't really praise motivated.

Keep in mind that toys and treats are an extension of you, and an extension of praise.

And yes, Agility requires a WHOLE lot more control than people sometimes think...I have friends with OTCH's on dogs that they have NO control over in an Agility ring.

And, if people are suggesting that you try Competitive Obedience, maybe you should go on YouTube and see a few runs and see if that is something that interests you - they may see something you don't. 

Obedience is my first love, my true love, and the reason I train dogs at all.  It's a very private moment you share with your dog in front of a judge and a whole lot of people  :P, but the feeling of a good obedience run has no equal.  Not to say that I don't love agility, I do - but it's more like a roller coaster - fun, exciting, fast, and over...so what you get from both sports is very different.


Christen83

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Re: Treats at trials??
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2007, 08:29:07 AM »
I watched some of the obedience runs at the nationals, I actually got to catch you and Jakob in the ring :)  I'd be interested, I just always figured Bruce was too high energy and would get bored with it, but he does take to classes very well so I guess I could be wrong.

The training club we go to is hosting an agility trial next weekend and I've signed up to help with food so I'll get to see more of that.

Next week I'm going to try to get to the club on some of our off nights to observe the other classes to get an idea of if I should do beginners again or move on to advanced beginners.

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Re: Treats at trials??
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2007, 11:15:03 AM »
Quote
I watched some of the obedience runs at the nationals, I actually got to catch you and Jakob in the ring

Well, and if that doesn't turn you off of dog training nothing will  :smash:.  I shouldn't tease him, with his CCD (doggie alzheimers) I'm still happy with what he is capable of doing, since some days he barely remembers his own name :smitten:

Quote
I just always figured Bruce was too high energy and would get bored with it, but he does take to classes very well so I guess I could be wrong.

Well, it's typically the high energy dog which is sought after for most dog sports.  The catch is, if the handler can actually handle a high energy dog to begin with, and channel the focus and energy in the right direction.

But, a person will never be exciting to a dog if they don't believe they can be. 

I love dog training.  It's exciting.  I love watching dogs learn, and watching dogs solve problems, and watching dogs (especially my dogs) perform tasks that very (VERY) few Boxers ever do.  That's why my dogs don't get bored. 

Personally, I find it a little insulting to this highly intelligent breed that I love when I read about people complaining that they have poor attention spans or that they get bored easily.  I'm sorry, but if my dogs don't have fun doing obedience, I don't blame my dogs and I don't blame the sport.

Granted, a love of competitive obedience comes from within, so it's either there, or it's not.  If you find that dog training takes you in one direction or the other, go with it.

Quote
The training club we go to is hosting an agility trial next weekend and I've signed up to help with food so I'll get to see more of that.

Have fun!  And happy training!!