Author Topic: Another Collar Question  (Read 2693 times)

Bugsys Mom

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Re: Another Collar Question
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2007, 11:01:23 AM »
OMG, i just searched the prong collar on google as i didnt know what it was, i was not expecting it to look like that. It looks like some sort of torture device.

I currently use the Halti Dog Harness designed by Dr Roger Mugford. You steer the dog from the chest, it seems to work for me.

It doesn't hurt the dog if properly fitted and properly used.
Vicky

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Re: Another Collar Question
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2007, 11:29:18 AM »
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We use the prong collar on all 3 dogs and it works very well. None of them pull at all anymore. I love it!

Just wondering - did you use it as a training tool to teach loose leash walking? Or are you still using it?
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Re: Another Collar Question
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2007, 11:33:05 AM »
We had a 20 minute lecture on proper training collars and leashes at our class last night.  Our trainer passed around the 'good' and the 'no so good' types.  She really likes prong collars, but recommends not using the largest ones on ANY dog.  She said she'd rather see people put two of the smaller pronged collars together as they are more supple and will allow better points of contact than the ones with the largest prongs. Ann called prong collars 'power steering' for your dog.  She also told us she's not crazy about nylon collars or leashes as they do not transmit energy from the handler to the dog as well.  When they show their German Shepards, they use little skinny 1/8" leather leashes since she feels this shows the dog is working essentially without the use of a leash and yet allows her to 'feel' the dog.  I was surprised and fascinated by all this info!
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LauniBug

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Re: Another Collar Question
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2007, 11:34:33 AM »
Quote
We use the prong collar on all 3 dogs and it works very well. None of them pull at all anymore. I love it!

Just wondering - did you use it as a training tool to teach loose leash walking? Or are you still using it?

It is currently used as a training tool for Dex and Mowgli. Dex is getting pretty good without it now.

We still use it on Madden (almost 2 years old), because he is uncontrollable when walking without it, but is a perfect angel with it.

LauniBug

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Re: Another Collar Question
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2007, 11:40:30 AM »
BTW  We use the smallest size prong collar on all the dogs. I got a larger one for Dex, but ended up returning it because the small one worked very well.

Renee

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Re: Another Collar Question
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2007, 11:40:49 AM »
This Clothier article goes over prongs in great detail:
http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html

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She said she'd rather see people put two of the smaller pronged collars together as they are more supple and will allow better points of contact than the ones with the largest prongs.

That's how I do it.  I ONLY use herm sprengers, but if the ever come out with one for toy breeds (J&J Makes one) I'd use 3-4 strung together.

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When they show their German Shepards, they use little skinny 1/8" leather leashes since she feels this shows the dog is working essentially without the use of a leash and yet allows her to 'feel' the dog.  


I agree 100%...all of my training leashes are shoestring thin.  




linz and ellie

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Re: Another Collar Question
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2007, 11:42:55 AM »
Can you get prong collars in the UK?


Bugsys Mom

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Re: Another Collar Question
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2007, 11:54:18 AM »
Great article Renee.  of course this means I have to tell Todd he was right again. :embarassed:
Vicky

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Re: Another Collar Question
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2007, 11:58:19 AM »
I suspect not; I know they're illegal in Australia, and I'd guess the UK has followed the same line.  (How on earth do they teach dogs to walk on a loose leash in those countries, I wonder!?  :P )

I was told prongs were 'power steering for dogs', as well, and spent quite some time discussing the proper use of one on Linus when he was taking a training class.  It worked not one iota - he pulled just as badly with the prong as without.  (Happily for me, as I had to figure out another way to teach him and learned I didn't need to use corrections at all. :) )  Most dogs generally will work to avoid a correction with a prong, but be aware that for some of them, it's just not unpleasant enough to change their behavior.
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Hanna Banana

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Re: Another Collar Question
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2007, 12:21:35 PM »
OMG Renee - love your new avatar of the new little girl! So Cute

Ok done hijacking!
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Carolyn

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Re: Another Collar Question
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2007, 12:25:44 PM »
Couple of additional comments from my own perspective:

1. Amber is correct-> any collar or training device is just a crutch to help the handler get a better handle on the situation until the dog is properly trained. No training device is a "solution" to any bad behaviors. Just a crutch.

2. The "Lupine" collars are what is commonly known as "Greyhound Collars" or "Limited Slip Collars" or "Martingales"   I strongly encourage ANYONE with a dog to use these in place of regular collars. If fitted properly (and most trainers and greyhound rescues will help you with that) They provide a measure of safety for your dog. They will tighten down enough to keep the dog from slipping out of the collar but not enough to choke the dog. And yes they are perfectly acceptable for puppies. Actually since puppies grow in-and-out of their collars so fast, I think martigales are the best. Nothing like seeing a puppy with a collar that is 2in too big get scared and bolt :eek: It is very scary.......martingales will not damage the dog (if fitted properly) but they do not offer the "right" amount of "corrections" if you are using them as a training collar. My trainer though does prefer that the owner use a martingale rather than a flat buckle collar if the person is against prong or training collars.

3. Choke Chains and Training Collars are the same device. I have spent many years seeing how "Choke chains" are applied in training (jerk/pull method) and agree that the risk of damage to the dog is VERY high. But I have also seen them used as a "Training Collar", Where the handler does very little if no corrections but is still able to get the point across. But again they are just tools to help you acheive a goal, no the goal itself.

4. There was a scientific study done in Germany on the prolonged use (again another hit for the "crutch" only theroy ;) ) of choke chains and prong collars. It found that dogs that had used choke chains over a life time suffered from an increase in damage to the neck area, both musculature and bones. Also they found that the damage to the neck from using a prong collar was minimal and about equal to a standard flat buckle collar.   But again both the choke chain and prong collars are crutches and therefore are not designed for long term exposure or use.

5. If using a prong collar, you should have a 2nd leash attached to a slip collar or choke chain on, the "prongs" have been known to snap open, thereby releasing your dog. :eek:

6. Prong collars are not the most ideal though for any type of "sensitive" corrections, They work by appling pressure around the neck at all times. Thereby giving the dog constant signals, for those with a more "subtle" touch on training, they would not work very well due to the constant feedback that they are giviing. You need to keep this in mind (that they give constant feedback) when using them and adjust your training methods to accomodate that issue.

All that being said: I firmly believe that the best solution is to use what ever works best for you and your dog with the least amount of "correction" for your dog. My male can literally handle and sometimes needs more "strength" in his corrections, my female due to her health doesnt need as much "strength" for corrections. There are dogs that are totally devastated with a dirty look and some that make you re-think (just for a moment) that alpha rolls might be helpful ::)  (seems like the later usually end up in my home ::) )
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steph0808

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Re: Another Collar Question
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2007, 12:38:13 PM »
Carolyn - thanks for the advice - that was an excellent post. I am definitely going to consider all the collars before deciding what is best for my pups.
Riley - 9/19/2008

Renee

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Re: Another Collar Question
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2007, 12:55:04 PM »
6. Prong collars are not the most ideal though for any type of "sensitive" corrections, They work by appling pressure around the neck at all times. Thereby giving the dog constant signals, for those with a more "subtle" touch on training, they would not work very well due to the constant feedback that they are giviing. You need to keep this in mind (that they give constant feedback) when using them and adjust your training methods to accomodate that issue.

Can you expand on that?  Having such an overall opposite experience, I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean.


Carolyn

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Re: Another Collar Question
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2007, 01:39:15 PM »
Can you expand on that?  Having such an overall opposite experience, I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean.

Ok, the premise of the prong collar is to apply even "pressure" around the dogs neck at all times. If you tend to follow the "clothier" method with tiny vibrational taps on the leash for corrections, the prong collar isnt going to work in that case. Also, collar corrections are difficult for the dog to understand when using a prong collar since they are being stimulated all the time by the collar. A properly fitted prong collar will have all the "prongs" touching the neck at all times, The "slip" part in the back is for if you need to apply a correction then the "prongs" tighten a bit more on the neck, evenly over the neck. So in a physical sense, you are distributing the "correction" over a larger surface area, thereby reducing the "strength" of the correction.

Ok, so imagine that a handler isnt too keen on administering a firm corrections, then the dog isnt going to be able to tell the difference between the stimuli it is getting normally and any "corrections", to use a prong collar the stimuli you send (i.e. the corrections) have to be strong enough to be distinctly different than the constant stimuli that the dog is getting from the collar. So if you have a softer touch in training, you will not see an advantage to using a prong collar. Actually if you have a soft touch in training, then a slip collar (either nylon or metal (choke chain)) would work best. But if you tend to be a bit "heavy handed" in the corrections department the prong might work best since it distributes the pressure evenly over the neck.

Point being though, these are crutches for the handler not the dog ;)  You should choose the one that gets the best results, which is very dependent on how you train and how you apply corrections. Another good reason to go to an obedience class and have a qualified professional critique your style and give hints on what training device would work best for your style and the dog's responsivity.
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Renee

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Re: Another Collar Question
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2007, 02:23:31 PM »
Quote
Ok, the premise of the prong collar is to apply even "pressure" around the dogs neck at all times. If you tend to follow the "clothier" method with tiny vibrational taps on the leash for corrections, the prong collar isnt going to work in that case.


I'm not sure I understand that, it distributes even pressure, but I would think that it's too tight if it's correcting the dog all the time (?)  I've followed the "clothier method" with prongs for a long time, had great results, so it's just odd for me to read that it doesn't work, when in my experience, it works well.

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A properly fitted prong collar will have all the "prongs" touching the neck at all times,


Don't all collars touch the neck at all times?

That sort of reminds me of using shark lines for off-lead transition, as though I can somehow "fool" my dog into believing they are not on leash.  If *I* can feel the leash, and depend on it to read my dog, I suppose I would have to believe my dog is equally aware of what's going on.

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So if you have a softer touch in training, you will not see an advantage to using a prong collar.

I respect your opinion, but I'm sorry, I believe that a soft touch is necessary to using one effectively, and that often, I can get a dog owner to ease up on the corrections they were previously using with other collars, which is why like using them - I can get more out of a dog using less force, which gets the ball rolling in my direction to help someone train their dog. 

Especially when you point out to someone that the dog is on the dead ring, and the prongs aren't tightening like they thought...then it's easier to flip the collar and go from there...

Different strokes I guess...