Tell me what everyone thinks of my boy Rebel

[Rubidawg]

I'm not really sure why you would want to breed back to that? That is not today's boxer and does not conform to the standards of today's boxer. It looks more pitty/cane/boston to me. lol You would be going backwards on all the years spent in properly breeding to better the breed, that breeders have spent lifetimes on accomplishing.

I also don't think you truly understand what it would take to get back to that type of dog. It actually would require mixing another breed. And that is not a boxer. To breed fault to fault to hope to acheive that is not bettering the breed, or being a responsible breeder.

I also think that if that is the "look" you are going for, then you are going to end up putting your puppies in shelters. People want boxerss that look like boxers. They want goldens that look like goldens. What you would be selling would be mixed breeds, and there's plenty of those in the shelters.

Also, with regards to testing, certified specialists are the way to go to ensure you get the proper answers - not a vet looking at your dogs hips, or hearing for a heartbeat thru the stethescope. Holter, Echo, OFA Certification, Thyroid (Full T4) Panels, DM test kits, etc. Again, please read the links I provided for more information.

And I just want to throw this out there as well. You mention you are in a wheelchair and have spinabifida. I'm just curious if you'd be able to physically take of these puppies once they are on the ground? Whelping is not an easy task at all. Matter of fact, you could end up hanf feeding several of the puppies, could end up with a mother with pyometra and lose her, lots to consider even AFTER they get here. I've heard many horror stories from some very responsible breeders on what they've had to do to ensure that their puppies survive after birth. It's not easy.

[Hickoryrockkenn]

wow everyones out to bash me thats ok.

[Rubidawg]

Not bashing. Just asking. We are very passionate about bettering this breed, not falling backwards. Many of us have had to deal with poor health, had to deal with rescue issues, finding homes for the ones that are no longer wanted. I'd love for you to stick around, get to know us and understand where we are coming from. You may learn a few things and have a better understanding of what it takes.

Again, not bashing, as I said in my first response, I hope you understand that none of us are trying to offend you - tones in messages can be translated very differently. So, no bashing.....just asking.

[Christina]

That picture looks just like my neighbors pittie. If that's the type of dog you like, they have cane corsos, which are bigger, and pitt bulls which can come in any size depending on the breeder.

There are so many things that can go wrong with a litter, hip dysplasia is really minor compared to other things. Have you seen the rescue thread recently on a young boxer that only has a few months to live due to a heart problem? I believe it's Trace. Magoo is another one that has a heart defect. DM is another disease that is extremely painful to watch a dog go through.  It's  just a simple genetic test. I've got a boy that has HD, spondylosis literally from mid-back to his tail, he tore his cruciates at less than a year old, and he bloated at 2 years old. But, he's beautiful on the outside!

[Hickoryrockkenn]

I am sorry its just that being in a wheelchair all my life ive had challenges. I just jumped the gun not thinking you dont know what my limitations are and what they are not. I am in a wheelchair but I can pretty much do everything everyone else can just in a different way. What I lack with my legs I have gained the power in my arms and upper body. I am able to stand and do transfers from my chair to my car, I am able to drive just fine. I want to back up for just a second and tell everyone I have a huge amount of respect for all the people on here and I hate coming across as someone who isnt educated. Educated to the fullest extent I might not be but the desire to learn I must say I score a 10 at. As for the cane corsos, pitbulls and presa yes they are good looking dogs. You guys can correct me if I am wrong didnt all of them start off as a Molosser breed? I just find that in the early 1900s the boxer looked more attractive to me and If you feel i would be trying to attempt to reverse someones hard work them I will respectfully back down from that desire.

[Rubidawg]

I don't think you've come across as uneducated, I think there is just much more to learn. We all started out somewhere and I can honestly say that I've learned more from the people on this forum in the past 7 years I've been a member, than I've learned from any vet or person off the street. I grew up with dogs as well, so there's just much to gain from taking a step back and learning from the group. I am curious if you've taken a look at the links I 'provided in your other thread about your Rebel? That is just a small step in willing to learn more.

As for your limitations, I apologize if my question came off offensive. As I said, I'm not trying to offend and tones can be thwarted one way or another. However, also understand that I do not know you and what your limitations are. I was simply just curious if whelping a litter of puppies would be stressful on you - perhaps that's how I should have put it or perhaps that's none of my business. But, when I think of a litter being born and know many who have had lots of problems with them, I know I'd not be able to handle it. lol But again, I apologize if there was any implication other than just hoping that your disease wouldn't hold back from proper care of a litter.

With regards to what you desire, that's completely up to you as well. However, that does not look like today's boxer and I wouldn't call it one. Yes, they all start somewhere and it takes those dogs to get to the breed we love.

I ask that you realize that many people come on here frequently with the desire to breed, so we hear the same thing quite a bit -
I want one like my Sammy
I want my child to experience the circle of birth
I want to make money
I just love the boxer so much, why not
My friends love my dog and they want one
...the list actually goes on and on. Many people come here and think it's as easy as taking a boy and a girl and letting them go to down over dinner and a movie (lol) and then the puppies come and the momma takes care of them and then I sell them. It's our goal to help others understand that it's far more than that. Way more than that! I have the utmost respect for the breeders on this forum and for what they put into their breeding program - the research, the studies, the evaluations by professional judges, the health certifications, traveling miles and miles across the country to find the proper match for their dog/bitch, hoping they get the puppy they want out of the litter, being disappointed when they dont, or having a litter of stillborns, or having a litter of all females when they wanted a male, or having a litter of all whites which can't be bred so it's no use to their breeding program and they have to find pet homes, or the follow-up tests and vet checks once the pups are here to make sure that all are healthy, nursing the pups that are weaker and get kicked off of momma, supplements to ensure their immune systems are increased so they will survive.

Again, the list goes on and on. I continue to encourage you to read through the forum, read through the American Boxer Club links I've provided, ask some of our breeders what they've put into breeding their dogs. I think you'd be surprised by how much there really is to learn about breeding properly, whelping, and making sure you find the best homes for those pups.

I do truly apologize if you've found my questions offensive or out of line, but do understand I have a passion for this breed as well and am only looking out for them as I've learned.....if we don't fight for them, nobody will. 

And to go back to your original question about Rebel, since we are getting off topic - I still think he is a very nice pet.

[Hickoryrockkenn]

Thank you so very much for taking the time to put it like that it truly means a lot to me. I can fully understand you wanting to discourage most who doesn't have what it takes to breed. The breed I'm sure thanks you. Right now as we speak I am cooking a pork tenderloin for my dogs lol nice little treat for them. As for me being in a wheelchair it's just a condition I was born with it won't be getting any better or worse just the pain levels go up and down. That's what I personally love about dogs they don't care that I'm hurting they still will encourage me getting up and taking them for a walk.  As for links I haven't read them just yet but I promise you I will read each and everyone. Also I have a question I would like to ask everyone. Is it fairly common to find a boxer that is as "bully" as Bella is. She is wide and short and very thick IMO. I take a lot of pride in my dogs as do probably each and everyone on here. I have been training rebel to be my service dog which is a plus to being in a wheelchair lol. Thanks for everyone's patience I am here for the long haul. I will respectfully open my eyes and hope to learn from all the great people on here if that's ok with everyone.

[BoxerWB]

Keep in mind that to be a responsible breeder, per the ABC, you are breeding to the standard - today's standard.  You also mentioned possibly showing dogs and again, you'd be looking at today's standard.  I have to wonder how a breed judge would react to a dog that looked that way coming into the ring as a Boxer.  In order to better a breed, everyone needs to be using the same measuring stick.  There may be minor variations on how one interprets the current standard, but the basics are the same and give you consistency.

Breeding is a crapshoot, but part of that is not knowing how traits will express themselves in the progeny.  I can't think of hearing about a champion bred from real "pet quality" dogs like yours, even though there are plenty of pet pups coming from champions.  Although I'd say a lot of pet pups coming from well-bred litters are really just a shade or two off from their siblings.  Breeders can evaluate their litter and choose conformation pups that are expressing their lineage in the best way possible.

And of course, all this doesn't even touch on the health considerations.  Are you able to find out the longevity of the lines for both your dogs, since I suspect they don't have the genetic testing behind them.  Can you find out what the dogs from those lines are dying of? Are there injuries or cancers that come up repeatedly amongst the lines?  Having two young, currently healthy dogs is only the tip of the iceberg when considering health for breeding.

As for Bella - it's common to find a lot of variation among "pet" bred dogs.  I know there are a couple pet dogs here who are more wide and stocky and "bully" than the norm.  I have yet to see that build in a well bred Boxer, even in ones that tend towards more bone and muscle.

[BoxerPerson]

In answer to your current question, yes, you do find boxers that are more "bully", that is because the breeder was not one that bred to the standards.  I lost my Goofy almost 2 years ago, he was huge! 102 pounds at his best (actually worse, but his heaviest) and I have Phoebe who is a tiny girl (Phoebe) at 44 pounds being a bit pudgy.  Again, all 3 of my current boxers are rescues whose parentage was, at best, either a BYB (Willlie & Snookie) or puppy mill (Phoebe).  I have had boxers with papers that look like bully boxers, dane boxers, American bulldog boxers, pitty boxers and yes I have even had boxer boxers LOL. Heck I have had them all! BUT, I rescue my pups, and I don't expect to breed or show them since they do not represent what a boxer should look like.  they have that wonderful boxer temperament, but they fall short of conforming to the boxer look. I also am taking on a crap shoot as to their health.  I have lost one to DM, 2 to cancer, 1 to kidney failure & 1 to heart issues.

If I was to purchase a boxer, it would be from someone that bred according to the ABC and be a pup that resembles the breed standard, had parents that were health tested and the pup.  

[Newcastle]

You've gotten some good advice here and I hope you take it to heart. One thing to mention is that in the 1900s, the breeders of the time knew the dogs they had were *not* ideal representations of the breed. They were a work-in-progress, evolving from the generic Bullenbeisser/Barenbeisser ancestors to the Boxer we know today. If the dog in the photo you posted is your ideal, you really want an American Staffordshire Terrier -- that breed is much closer to the look you like than Boxers are.

As far as health testing goes, the reason we "harp" on it here is that the health problems to which Boxers are prone can have devastating effects on the puppies, from severe itching and allergies (where the skin is scratched raw) to a lifetime of pain to dogs dropping dead at 2 years old. Testing can't guarantee every puppy produced will live a long, healthy, problem-free life, but it dramatically increases the odds. Trust me when I tell you that it is devastating to get a call from one of your puppy buyers to let you know their dog died at a young age -- I can't begin to imagine how much more awful it would be if the dog had died from something you very well could have prevented by testing the parents. So as you're reading and learning, please keep that in mind -- it's about the dogs, always, and giving the puppies you produce the very best chance at a long, happy, healthy life.

[Hickoryrockkenn]

I can imagine that hearing something I created got sick due to not wanting to test. Right now rebel has a bump between his toes. I am debating on taking him to the vet over it. I don't feel that it is allergies but not sure.

[aquagirl900]

bumps could mean mast cell tumour..very common in boxers...

[Hickoryrockkenn]

Just got out of the vets they took a sample and looked at it under microscope. Luckily it was just an infection and he's got clindamycin and rimadyl

[Hickoryrockkenn]

I have been doing a lot of reading and research ESP about muzzle length. I was curious as to what people here felt was correct is the muzzle supposed to be 1/2 or 1/3 the size of the head? Today I did my best to look at reference pictures of how to measure. Both of my pups seemed to measure 1/2 I just hope I measured right. If I get a better side shot of both of them could someone give me some thoughts please? Thanks

[BoxerPerson]

I think from what I have seen of Rebel, his muzzle is too long.  Just by your avatar picture I see this.