Two questions about the Boxer head standard (the plane of skull and the stop)

[markwantsaboxer]

From the AKC standard on the Boxer:

"Head:
"The beauty of the head depends upon the harmonious proportion of muzzle to skull. The blunt muzzle is 1/3 the length of the head from the occiput to the tip of the nose, and 2/3rds the width of the skull. The head should be clean, not showing deep wrinkles (wet). Wrinkles typically appear upon the forehead when ears are erect, and are always present from the lower edge of the stop running downward on both sides of the muzzle."


In the official standard, there does not seem to be any mention of the plane of the Boxer's forehead, which points down in a 45 degree angle to the tip of the dog's nose. Nor does the standard seem to mention the pronounced stop of the dog, which seems to be practically vertical or 90 degrees. Both of these common characteristics are evident in the Munich silhouette, but not in the written standard.

Would it be permissible for a Boxer 

a) to have no plane of the forehead, but rather have a rounded head, and

b) to have a less pronounced stop, perhaps at 72 degrees or so?

I am guessing that it could be permitted but it would not be a show winner.

And people who see the dog might say, "Um, is your dog part Rottweiler or Bulldog?..."   

[Newcastle]

You haven't read far enough into the standard.

Skull
The top of the skull is slightly arched, not rounded, flat, nor noticeably broad, with the occiput not overly pronounced. The forehead shows a slight indentation between the eyes and forms a distinct stop with the topline of the muzzle. The cheeks should be relatively flat and not bulge (cheekiness), maintaining the clean lines of the skull as they taper into the muzzle in a slight, graceful curve.

The WorldWide Boxer site has additional information on the skull:
http://www.worldwideboxer.com/skull.html

a) to have no plane of the forehead, but rather have a rounded head, and

The forehead *should* be slightly rounded; that's not the same as the plane of the skull.

b) to have a less pronounced stop, perhaps at 72 degrees or so?

The stop is not actually 90 degrees; it looks 90 degrees from the side because of the shape and placement of the eyes. This is a little more clear when you look at the skull, without the padding:
http://www.worldwideboxer.com/boxer_skull.html

[markwantsaboxer]

You haven't read far enough into the standard.

Skull
The top of the skull is slightly arched, not rounded, flat, nor noticeably broad, with the occiput not overly pronounced. The forehead shows a slight indentation between the eyes and forms a distinct stop with the topline of the muzzle. The cheeks should be relatively flat and not bulge (cheekiness), maintaining the clean lines of the skull as they taper into the muzzle in a slight, graceful curve.

The WorldWide Boxer site has additional information on the skull:
http://www.worldwideboxer.com/skull.html

a) to have no plane of the forehead, but rather have a rounded head, and

The forehead *should* be slightly rounded; that's not the same as the plane of the skull.

b) to have a less pronounced stop, perhaps at 72 degrees or so?

The stop is not actually 90 degrees; it looks 90 degrees from the side because of the shape and placement of the eyes. This is a little more clear when you look at the skull, without the padding:
http://www.worldwideboxer.com/boxer_skull.html

Sorry, it is true that I did not read the section on the skull.

It seems that the whole point of the Worldwide Boxer site is that the European head is too rounded and the American head is too flat. In her mind, the English head is just right. So what constitutes "slightly arched" is a matter of interpretation -- or misinterpretation, in the view of the website.

Even if one looks at the skull without the padding to find that it is not exactly 90 degrees in terms of bone structure, would it be permissible to have the stop be less pronounced than it is in the pictures of the Boxer? In fact, in the Worldwide Boxer site, the drawings show the forehead to actually actually protrude, so that the stop looks like it is about 117 degrees (especially in the European head). Would it be technically permissible to make the stop actually look like 72 degrees rather than look like 90 or even 117 degrees? 

Thanks!

[Newcastle]

I guess I'm not understanding how you're measuring the angle of the stop. If you're using the top of the muzzle as one line and the groove of the stop as the other, then a 72-degree stop would have the skull pushing back over the muzzle.

The Chihuahua standard calls for a 90-degree stop angle, for comparison.

[markwantsaboxer]

I guess I'm not understanding how you're measuring the angle of the stop. If you're using the top of the muzzle as one line and the groove of the stop as the other, then a 72-degree stop would have the skull pushing back over the muzzle.

The Chihuahua standard calls for a 90-degree stop angle, for comparison.

I am saying that if you look at the illustrations on the Worldwide Boxer site, the skull is pushed back over the muzzle (that's what I mean by a 117 degree angle at the stop). I am guessing that if this was not rewarded at dog shows, it would not exist, and it is what judges and breeders more generally desire. But is it the standard? According the the Worldwide Boxers, most Boxers do not meet the standard.

Incidentally, there are generally two types of Chihuahua skull shape, the apple-headed and the deer-headed. So within every breed there are these divergences.

[Newcastle]

I am saying that if you look at the illustrations on the Worldwide Boxer site, the skull is pushed back over the muzzle (that's what I mean by a 117 degree angle at the stop).

What you're seeing in the illustrations is *not* the angle of the stop -- the stop in profile is obscured by the supraorbital ridge (eyebrow ridge). The stop itself is the indentation between the eyes, which lies at a greater-than-90-degree angle (using the muzzle as the bottom line).

If you're seeing the brow ridges at a 117-degree angle, then you're using a line from the base of the stop through the back of the skull as a bottom line, rather than from the nose to the base of the stop. (A 117-degree angle is more 'open' than a 90-degree angle.) The stop would be at a less-than-90-degree angle from that bottom line -- but I dare say the majority of people talking about stop angle are using the muzzle as the bottom line.

Incidentally, there are generally two types of Chihuahua skull shape, the apple-headed and the deer-headed. So within every breed there are these divergences.

There are divergences, but the *standard* describes one type of head and calls for a 90-degree stop angle.