Author Topic: breeder's responsibility for congenital problems in puppy  (Read 9389 times)

BoxerWB

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Re: breeder's responsibility for congenital problems in puppy
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2010, 09:12:51 PM »
I would check into whether this agreement you are writing up is even legally binding in your state. I suspect it isn't unless you have it notarized or otherwise official.

I know with the price of her pups, you feel like it's a big financial loss to not get a replacement pup.  But if you think about all the money you spend on a dog over its lifetime - THAT is the bigger investment and it can be considerably more expensive when you are starting with a dog that has not come from good beginnings.  If you talk with many of our members, they can tell you about the thousands of dollars they have spent caring for dogs from bad breeders.

If you are already looking at waiting until spring, why not see if our members can help you find a GOOD breeder.  Their pups may cost about the same, but you will get a pup from health tested parents and a breeder who *actually* cares.  Again, you can talk to our members here -- many of them can tell you what it's like to have a pup from a responsible breeder. 
Julia
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Lisa

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Re: breeder's responsibility for congenital problems in puppy
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2010, 01:21:29 AM »
I'm so sorry to hear about poor little Molly.  I hope she somehow turns out OK.

I'm in a somewhat similar situation with Koda and his breeder.  He came with a two-year hip and heart guarantee, was diagnosed with DCM (heart disease) shortly before he turned two, probably only has a few years to live during which time he'll need thousands of dollars in supplements, drugs, echocardiograms and other vet treatments, etc.  I have the option of either returning him which I'd never do after having him this long and then not knowing what happened to him, he's my boy forever, or keeping him and either way getting a free puppy from the breeder, but no way do I want another from her bloodlines since I found out too late that she isn't a very good breeder, not enough health testing and some other things I don't like, and my new puppy would likely be related to Koda and likely to also have health problems.  I guess I could take a free puppy from her and sell it, but that would just encourage her to breed more so I'm just taking the loss.

Would your replacement puppy be related to Molly?  It seems likely since their website shows only one mature female and one mature male.  I don't see any information about any health testing having been done on either of them.  I would not want a puppy from that breeder at any price.
Artax, male Retriever mix, 11/1/99
Koda, CGC RN TT AD, male brindle, 10/10/08
Mukki, CGC, female fawn, 4/20/10


nance

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Re: breeder's responsibility for congenital problems in puppy
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2010, 01:43:32 AM »
No.  We found out the breeder was actually selling these pups for a friend.  The money she received for Molly was hers, for selling the pups.  Make sense?  New litter will come from her dogs, not related to Molly.  Claims her dogs have been tested for genetic defects and we will be able to see their certificates and results.  I have a feeling this story is far from over.  Good luck on whatever you decide to do about your dog.  It sure isn't easy, is it?

Lisa

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Re: breeder's responsibility for congenital problems in puppy
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2010, 02:14:37 AM »
You can check on certain health tests including heart echocardiogram results, hip x-rays, genetic tests for DM, thyroid blood test results and some other things at OFA's site:

http://www.offa.org/

I looked up the name of the bitch they plan to breed and no health test results came up.
Artax, male Retriever mix, 11/1/99
Koda, CGC RN TT AD, male brindle, 10/10/08
Mukki, CGC, female fawn, 4/20/10


BurningRiver

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Re: breeder's responsibility for congenital problems in puppy
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2010, 07:48:23 AM »
I'm very sorry to hear that this happened to you. I sincerely hope that you are able to get the dog of your dreams, but I strongly advise that you consider choosing another breeder who health tests, shows and proves the temperaments of their dogs. With backyard breeders, all of these things are total wild cards, and many problems don't appear until the dog is older.

I have to be honest. . . I'm in Ohio, but I'll have a difficult time signing this petition. Coming from a breeder's point of view (and one who already observes these conditions), laws like this are flawed and designed to punish the already responsible, because only the responsible follow the law. It will not affect people like your breeder, because they're already behaving in an irresponsible manner and they are most likely ignorant to breeder and pet laws to begin with.

The issues that I see with this proposed law are:

- The requirement of partial reimbursement for dispute of pedigree, yet the owner still gets to keep the dog:

Dispute of pedigree, while uncommon can happen for a number of reasons. Ideally, it will never happen, but I've heard of cases in which a dog two generations back in the pedigree was called into question, which thereby caused the pedigrees of all of the offspring of that dog to be called into question. I have a hard time pinning this on the shoulders of the breeder at the end of the line, as it's likely they were taken by less than scrupulous people as well.

- The mention of "hereditary conditions" and definition of the breeder's responsibility.

It is impossible to enforce this clause across all breeds, because different hereditary conditions affect different breeds. In my contracts, I offer replacement puppies for any dog that is diagnosed with any of the following conditions before the age of 3: ARVC, SAS, Hip Displaysia. I will not guarantee thyroid, even though I test for it, because most of the thyroid disorders out there are environmental and not genetic. The only way to test genetic thyroid is to test TgAA, which many vets don't even do. There are quite a few vets out there who will diagnose a dog with low T3 and/or low T4 as hypothyroid, but these values being low are not indicative of hereditary thyroid disease. With that said, if a dog were actively sick, I would do everything in my power to work with the owner, even up to taking the dog back to make the dog comfortable and healthy, but I do not feel that I should be forced to reimburse for or offer replacement for something that could be caused by feeding a poor diet, or overvaccinating the dog, or overmedicating the dog, etc.

- The option for reimbursement.

I am opposed to the notion that we should be forced to buy our puppies back. I feel that some responsibility of research does fall on the shoulders of the buyer, and am of the opinion that many buyers today put more research into buying a car, or a television than they do into buying a dog (despite the fact that your average dog has a much longer lifespan than both!). It is my personal belief that replacement conditions are things that should be discussed between breeder and buyer prior to the purchase papers being signed, and something that should be outlined in a contract in a personal agreement, not mandated by a law.

- This law does not account for all situations.

Sometimes stuff just happens when dealing with living, breathing beings. Despite our best efforts, and all of the health testing in the world, we cannot control genetics, or illness. I know of one specific example of a puppy diagnosed with high grade SAS being born from two parents that were echo cleared and came from echo cleared lines. One of the best university authorities in boxer hearts in the country stated that, knowing the history of the parents, the condition could have been "spontaneous". The breeder offered a replacement puppy to the prospective buyers before the puppy was even placed, but the buyers decided that they wanted that puppy anyway, despite the breeder's full disclosure. This petition, as written does not account for these types of situations.

Again, I'm sorry that you've had this poor experience, but please know that there are great breeders out there who do breed carefully and scrupulously. I sincerely hope that you are able to find the puppy that you are looking for and one that will be with you for years to come. Please feel free to reach out to me if you have any questions at all, or if you would like help finding a responsible breeder near Ohio.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 02:45:22 PM by BurningRiver »
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BurningRiver

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Re: breeder's responsibility for congenital problems in puppy
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2010, 08:02:50 AM »
One other thing that I forgot to mention is to definitely get or see proof of all health testing prior to agreeing to purchasing a puppy.

With my puppies, I provide their owners with copies of everything. With my last litter that included:

+ copies of all health testing conducted on both parents (OFA certificates for heart, hips and thyroid, multiple holter reports, thyroid panel results, echo results. dad was CERF'ed and mom had her elbows certified).
+ copies of any temperament testing certificates and results
+ copies of research pedigrees (containing known health, temperament and conformation issues for each dog in the pedigree), as well as pictures of the parents and any other relatives I have on file
+ a three page long written sheet about how to feed and care for your puppy (I feed a raw diet, and everything is outlined for that.)
+ contact information for myself, my vet
+ purchase agreement/contract
+ registration papers pre-filled out with the puppy's registered name (I reserve the right to name my puppies.)

I'm not sure what other breeders provide, but at bare minimum, you should be able to obtain copies of the health test results for both parents along with a pedigree, registration papers and a purchase agreement or contract.
Jessica, Mia and Carter
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Theresa

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Re: breeder's responsibility for congenital problems in puppy
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2010, 09:32:59 AM »
When I got Peanut I also got copies of all Peanut's parent health tests. In fact I got a HUGE binder of stuff and it was great.
Mom to:
Beasley (flashy fawn male) born 11/15/2005
Peanut (classic brindle female) born 2/15/2009
Evan (two legged brunette male) born 4/20/2011

nance

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Re: breeder's responsibility for congenital problems in puppy
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2010, 01:54:05 PM »
Thank you for the information.

BoxerWB

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Re: breeder's responsibility for congenital problems in puppy
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2010, 02:39:50 PM »
FYI - The term for someone selling dogs for someone else (friend or not) is puppy broker.  Frequently, they say they are selling for a friend when they are actually reselling from a puppymill.  Which makes me wonder if your little 5# pup is even really 8 weeks old.  She could be only 5-6 weeks (the age where she'd be weaned, but maybe not ready for plain old dog kibble)... which might explain her nutrition issues.  IF you haven't already returned Molly, you may want to consider finding some puppy formula or gruel to try feeding her, at least until you give her back.  It shouldn't be expensive and it could help.
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nance

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Re: breeder's responsibility for congenital problems in puppy
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2010, 12:45:14 PM »
Thank so much for all of your help.

Patti

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Re: breeder's responsibility for congenital problems in puppy
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2010, 01:01:31 PM »
You've received some good advice but I just wanna put it out there - I really hope you re-think getting another puppy from this lady. Breeder/puppy broker, what ever she is, she is shady at best. You are setting yourself up for heartache in the future getting another dog from this person. I know the loss of money in this investment sucks but think of the thousands you may need to spend in the future if the next pup has problems too.  Good luck with your decision.
Patti & Otis (8/18/2006)


WildBeanerz

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Re: breeder's responsibility for congenital problems in puppy
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2010, 02:33:06 PM »
You've received some good advice but I just wanna put it out there - I really hope you re-think getting another puppy from this lady. Breeder/puppy broker, what ever she is, she is shady at best. You are setting yourself up for heartache in the future getting another dog from this person. I know the loss of money in this investment sucks but think of the thousands you may need to spend in the future if the next pup has problems too.  Good luck with your decision.

 :thumbsup: Good advice & well said too!

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Bones RIP big guy 11.04.10 :angel:
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Chloe 11.19.09 fawn female
Love my rescue

nance

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Re: breeder's responsibility for congenital problems in puppy
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2010, 10:11:27 PM »
The breeder has been in touch with us  and am now looking forward to next spring.  She is really trying to make things right for us and I'm am giving her the benefit of the doubt.  We have a written agreement.  Sometimes we simply have to trust that people will do the right thing.  She really appears to have a good heart and the best intentions.

BoxerWB

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Re: breeder's responsibility for congenital problems in puppy
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2010, 06:46:38 AM »
Unfortunately, a good heart and the best intentions do not make a breeder responsible and I can tell you just based on her pricing methods, this breeder does NOT qualify.  We are trying to warn you away because she's not doing right by the breed, not because we think she is a "bad" person.
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nance

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Re: breeder's responsibility for congenital problems in puppy
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2010, 09:31:21 AM »
It is actually my son who purchased this puppy.  I apologize for misrepresenting myself.  This is my last post here.