Author Topic: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern  (Read 6887 times)

Lisa

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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2010, 04:59:07 PM »
"all their testing" only includes Doppler and hip/spine x-rays at 2 years old.
I consider the ZTP test and working titles part of health testing as well.

If you don't trust us, that is your prerogative - but why then should we trust you and, through you, Claudia in saying she's never heard of ARVC in Continental dogs?
Don't trust me or Cathy (who I assume you meant by Claudia) if you don't want to.  Just show me evidence of some Continental Boxers with ARVC.  It is so easy to find many examples of NA and UK Boxers with it, but no one can seemingly come up with even one German.  I don't fully trust anyone, but this makes what Cathy told me seem more likely to be true.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:31:09 AM by Newcastle »
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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2010, 05:53:15 PM »
Lisa, seriously, it does sound like you are also taking the word of one breeder as holy bible, and anyone elses opinion is not sound!

My suggestion, do your research, don't ask everyone else for names, go to the sources. If you want to know these things ask the breeders of the continental/german dogs...then you have it from the horses mouth.

These dogs do not belong to us, or me or or or, so spreading knowledge when it isn't ours to choose to spread, is just rude.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:31:46 AM by Newcastle »
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Newcastle

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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2010, 05:58:01 PM »
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Don't trust me or Cathy (who I assume you meant by Claudia) if you don't want to.  Just show me evidence of some Continental Boxers with ARVC.  

Oops, yes, Cathy, sorry.  I could just as easily ask you to show me evidence of Continental Boxers that don't have ARVC. Could you provide that, since they don't test or look for it? "I haven't heard of any" isn't really adequate "proof" - I'd wager 95% or more of "BYBs" haven't heard of an NA Boxer that had ARVC.

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It is so easy to find many examples of NA and UK Boxers with it, but no one can seemingly come up with even one German.

Don't you think that could be at least partially related to the fact that NA and UK breeders are looking for ARVC, and German breders aren't?

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That is what I want to know, what I need to know in order to research the pedigree.

If you're researching a pedigree, you should be able to ask about the specific dogs and find the information you're seeking, including cause of death. That's quite a bit different than looking for a list of every Continental dog that has ARVC.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:32:07 AM by Newcastle »
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Lisa

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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2010, 06:15:32 PM »
Lisa, seriously, it does sound like you are also taking the word of one breeder as holy bible, and anyone elses opinion is not sound!
Absolutely not.  If that were the case I wouldn't have come here asking for information about it.  I am researching other sources too.  This is the only place people seem to insist ARVC exists in Continental dogs without showing me any evidence.

Don't you think that could be at least partially related to the fact that NA and UK breeders are looking for ARVC, and German breders aren't?
I disagree that German breeders aren't looking or testing for ARVC.

If you're researching a pedigree, you should be able to ask about the specific dogs and find the information you're seeking, including cause of death. That's quite a bit different than looking for a list of every Continental dog that has ARVC.
Right, and I do that when researching pedigrees.  I'm not looking for a list of every Continental dog with ARVC, just some evidence of it.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:32:53 AM by Newcastle »
Artax, male Retriever mix, 11/1/99
Koda, CGC RN TT AD, male brindle, 10/10/08
Mukki, CGC, female fawn, 4/20/10


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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2010, 06:43:11 PM »
I do wonder a lot about mixing the different lines and what this ARVC gene may or may not mean. In the UK case it seems the result of the ARVC gene test has little correlation with the actual lines that are shown to be effected by ARVC. But they do carry one gene that may be related to ARVC and in many cases a double copy of that gene. In the US dogs we seem to have dogs known to come from lines that have ARVC but are testing clear. SO what happens when we mix the two, it kinda scares me to think about. Could there be mulitiple genes, one more a trigger and does one group (UK, US) have more occurance of one over the other...add them together and... ???
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:33:13 AM by Newcastle »
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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2010, 07:13:38 PM »
I do wonder a lot about mixing the different lines and what this ARVC gene may or may not mean. In the UK case it seems the result of the ARVC gene test has little correlation with the actual lines that are shown to be effected by ARVC. But they do carry one gene that may be related to ARVC and in many cases a double copy of that gene. In the US dogs we seem to have dogs known to come from lines that have ARVC but are testing clear. SO what happens when we mix the two, it kinda scares me to think about. Could there be mulitiple genes, one more a trigger and does one group (UK, US) have more occurance of one over the other...add them together and... ???
I have concerns about these same issues also.

Also, my Boxers' registered names are Koda Bear VIII and Ursa Mukki Von Bachbett.  They are both heterozygous for the ARVC-1 gene.  Mukki is clear of DM and Koda is heterozygous for it.  Koda very likely has DCM.  Anyone is welcome to spread this information to anyone they want, and tell those people they can tell anyone they want about it.  I don't care who knows, and in fact want the info as available as possible to anyone and everyone.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:33:32 AM by Newcastle »
Artax, male Retriever mix, 11/1/99
Koda, CGC RN TT AD, male brindle, 10/10/08
Mukki, CGC, female fawn, 4/20/10


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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2010, 10:07:08 PM »
Lisa,  By what method are the Continental breeders weeding out ARVC???

Caps and Exclamation, when used to highlight specific words is not yelling, but making those words stand out!!!!!  I have NOTHING to be mad about!



Again, it is important to point out, that while we may have information about specific lines... It isn't prudent for us to share this information with you, especially without the breeder or owners OK!!!!  It is RUDE to do so.  Take the implication, and run with it!
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:44:37 AM by Newcastle »
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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2010, 10:52:32 PM »
I am done with this topic unless someone can show me solid evidence of well-bred German Boxers with ARVC.  If it were nearly as big of a problem there as it is here or even in the UK surely I'd have been able to find at least one dog with it by now, especially with all the German dogs that have been imported to the U.S. in recent years.  Plenty of breeders do test, and it's pretty impossible not to notice young dogs fainting and dropping dead.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:34:21 AM by Newcastle »
Artax, male Retriever mix, 11/1/99
Koda, CGC RN TT AD, male brindle, 10/10/08
Mukki, CGC, female fawn, 4/20/10


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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2010, 07:07:07 AM »
This was the first "seminar/webinar" on the subject that I have been able to attend.... To be honest, some of her writing were a little too in depth for me (which I am much better on now since my A&P class, especially the Physiology aspect.  It has helped me a LOT!)  But, this webinar put a lot of my questions to rest.... 
Did you feel that she was still pushing the test a little???
 I sent Corky's sample in, my original intention was not to do her's, but after the webinar and being I have Alice to hopefully continue the line... I thought it was best to know....  I asked her about Corky's last holter, and was suprised that she still only recommended a yearly holter....  I was supposed to do a 6 month holter on her (per my own request) in September, but with Georigie's accident and school I didn't do it yet..  :(  Now I am questioning doing it at all! 
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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2010, 08:25:35 AM »
I just listened to the webinar last night and I thought it was very interesting and I got lots of good information from it  :thumbsup:
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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2010, 09:44:01 AM »
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Did you feel that she was still pushing the test a little???

Only a little. ::) Of course, Dr. Meurs has a lot invested in this test, and I am sure she is absolutely convinced this mutation is the main one for ARVC and testing and breeding away from it will eliminate ARVC in our breed.

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If it were nearly as big of a problem there as it is here or even in the UK surely I'd have been able to find at least one dog with it by now,

I don't recall anyone saying it is as big of a problem there as it is here.  All anyone has said is that it is not completely absent even from Continental dogs that have UK lines. (When you consider all Boxers come from the same foundation stock just over 100 years ago, and that even back then dogs were dying of "heart attacks", it's really not a leap to think it's present in all dogs, in all countries, to varying degrees.)

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Plenty of breeders do test,

It would help us all if you'd list the Continental breeders you've found who holter annually and/or have the DNA test performed on all their dogs.

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Also, my Boxers' registered names are Koda Bear VIII and Ursa Mukki Von Bachbett.  They are both heterozygous for the ARVC-1 gene.

Does Mukki have UK behind her? If  Continent Boxers don't have ARVC, how is it possible that Mukki has one copy of the ARVC-1 gene? Or do you think the gene is completely unrelated to ARVC, in which case why bother testing for it?

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I don't care who knows, and in fact want the info as available as possible to anyone and everyone.

That's a great attitude, but not all breeders share it. Without that kind of explicit permission, we cannot share information that belongs to other breeders.  Your issue really is not with those of us who have knowledge of Continental dogs with ARVC; your issue is with the breeders and owners of those dogs who are keeping the information secret.
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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2010, 10:33:19 AM »
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Did you feel that she was still pushing the test a little???

Only a little.  Of course, Dr. Meurs has a lot invested in this test, and I am sure she is absolutely convinced this mutation is the main one for ARVC and testing and breeding away from it will eliminate ARVC in our breed.


Maybe I am missing something . But if arvc- dogs can still get arvc then how will breeding away from the gene eliminate arvc . I understand that hetero and homo dogs have a greater incidence of actually getting arvc but still can arvc- dogs .  ???
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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2010, 10:53:03 AM »
She is saying that this gene in specific has a prevalence of causing ARVC, and that is should be bred away from.  That the population as a whole CAN be affected if they have this gene, but that some lines may have a marker to prevent it!  This is what I got anyhow!!!!  Correct me if I am wrong, or need ot depthen this!
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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2010, 11:35:09 AM »
Maybe I am missing something . But if arvc- dogs can still get arvc then how will breeding away from the gene eliminate arvc . I understand that hetero and homo dogs have a greater incidence of actually getting arvc but still can arvc- dogs .  ???

I see it this way........they have found 1 gene so far which causes ARVC, so if we breed away from this gene there will be less cases of ARVC caused from this gene. In the future whenever they discover more genes, then our goal will be to try and breed away from those. Presumably, each gene we breed away from should lesson the incidence of this disease.
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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2010, 12:34:21 PM »
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That the population as a whole CAN be affected if they have this gene, but that some lines may have a marker to prevent it

That's the impression I get about what Dr. Meurs believes. She has pointed out that in humans, there are 11 genes known to separately cause ARVC and I think she said about 40 different mutations among those  genes - but she seems convinced that in Boxers, this is the only gene that causes it and any other genes will be modifiers that prevent expression of the disease. (That may not be at all what she things, but that's how she comes across.)

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Presumably, each gene we breed away from should lesson the incidence of this disease.

Presumably. :) I'm not entirely convinced it's been proven that this gene *causes* ARVC, based on what's been published (though it's entirely possible there's unpublished research that we aren't able to review). There's clearly an association between this gene and VPCs in affected dogs, and certainly the human research indicates this is a good candidate for a causative gene - but with the anomalies among the UK dogs I think it may be possible that there is another gene that actually causes the disease, and the ARVC-1 gene determines whether or not those dogs will ever show VPCs from it.  (Again, it may be flipped; Dr. Meurs may be right that this gene causes ARVC and another gene determines whether affected dogs will ever have VPCs. I just don't think we have enough information to say either way. Certainly Dr. Meurs is more qualified to make that determination than I am, but there are other qualified cardiologists and geneticists who question her findings.)

At any rate, I think it has been shown that this gene causes a lack of adhesion between cardiac cells, and so if nothing else it's probably valuable to judiciously breed away from that.
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