Author Topic: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern  (Read 6886 times)

fairview Boxers

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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2010, 01:34:01 PM »
To add to something that, I personally holter at one year of age, because I had the unfortunate experience of owning a severely affected Boxer.  He died at 3.5 from ARVC, and I wouldn't have known about it at age two, (and possible bred him), had it not been for holtering.  For me, since I own a holter, it is better to do it and know they are severely affected at a young age and "waste" $30 than to not know and be side swiped at an slightly older age!


For the breeders, so does this mean that if we have a stud dog, that he shouldn't be bred until he has had a holter at age 3 (which apparently still isn't definitive)????  Or, should we go from lines, dna, and research????  In short, and educated guess!
Kat Medved
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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2010, 02:09:18 PM »
I'm not comfortable with the "don't holter until 3 years old" thing and I'm not entirely comfortable with the "young dog with thousands of VPCs must have a virus" thing, either. I too know of examples of dogs with thousands of VPCs at a young age who died of ARVC before the typical age of onset.

What I am more comfortable with is holtering younger dogs to rule out severe disease and establish a baseline, knowing that for those dogs family history and longevity is in most cases going to be more meaningful than the holter results - and understanding that because of this, a "clear" holter at 2 years old is basically meaningless for a 5-year-old dog.

Of course, we already know this, but I see lots and lots of breeders bragging about a holter done when the dog is 1-2 as clearance for breeding when the dog is 6-7. At least with a statement from Dr. Meurs that holtering before 3 won't tell you much for most dogs, it might get the word out to puppy buyers to demand more holters at older ages.

(PS - thanks, Kat (Soleil) :) )
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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2010, 03:00:18 PM »
Thanks for the information Jennifer. It sounds like it was an interesting discussion.

** On doing the echo doppler at 12 months - that is the same information I got from Dr Baumwart who was doing echo's at regionals. Trigger had had an echo done at 14 months and I had another one done at regionals - since he was over 2 years - and the cardiologist said absolutely no reason to re-do an echo if he was clear at 14 months. I will remember that going forward.

** The no need to holter before 3 years is also VERY interesting. I am sure I will to get some sort of baseline going forward, but it does make breeding decisions tough if you really don't know anything when they are young. But hopefully, it will get more people holtering later in life. I know I find it frustrating that most people seem to think that 1 clear holter on a young dog is all that is needed to clear them for life. I mean - how many stud dogs are there out there with multiple holters???

** The abnormal beats on the holter info was also interesting. I have run acorss ventricular escape beats before and wasn't too sure what they were.

I do hope that Dr Meurs starts to follow some of the dogs who have had the gene test done to see if more information can be garnered.
Kerry
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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2010, 03:25:25 PM »
The recording of the webinar is now available online. Here's the e-mail from the webinar coordinator (for lack of a better term!):

Quote
A recording of the event is available at the URL below.   The recording will stay active for about 1 week after which the recording will be available from the WSU cardiac genetics web site at http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/deptsVCGL/index.aspx

*To play the recording*

·         Go to https://sas.elluminate.com/mr.jnlp?suid=M.439E02BFF379E00468AC73EFD2B769&sid=2009403
          (I don't know why the text of the link is white - it is there, just above this line of text; if you hover your mouse over it you'll see it and can click it!)

·         Enter your email address when prompted

·         You will be asked if you want to download the notes file (boxerCM-email.pdf) which is the same file I emailed you

·         The technical process is the same as for the live event so if you have problems with the recording see more details below

·         The recording loads to your computer in “Pieces” so if your connection is not very fast, open the recording and walk away for 10  - 20 minutes will the recording loads

·         Under the SESSION menu is an option called “show recording index” which shows how much of the recording is loaded for you to play (you can use this index to jump back and forth in the session)

*Trouble shooting*

Apologies to those who had access problems; I am not very skilled in trouble shooting at a distance. Please consider the following if you are unable to access the recording

·         Run the system test at http://www.elluminate.com/Support/?id=62

·         When you follow the link to the recording, if using Internet Explorer, at the very top of the page is a yellow strip asking your permission to download a file to which you need to answer yes

·         If using Firefox you may see a message asking how to open play.jnlp, select open with Java

·         often problems are related to java which unfortunately is beyond my ability to help as there are several variables; there are several tips about java under the FAQs at the left of the system test page

·         At the right of the system test page is a link to a support portal which allows you have a text chat with a support person

*Notes*

Some images have been removed from the notes as the publisher of the journal in which the pictures were published owns the copyright.  The complete reference can be purchased at http://www.springerlink.com/content/c84633195421q450/ **

We hope to see you again in the future.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 03:28:12 PM by Newcastle »
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Lisa

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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2010, 04:51:48 PM »
it makes me absolutely insane when people (from all over), make the statement that "our lines don't have this".   ::) You don't know what you don't test for, and while people think holtering is not available outside of the states, it only takes 1 person to spend $500 (or less if they dont' buy from Alba), to have a holter monitor, and $25 (ok, maybe ad $5 for postage), for the tapes to be read.  It bothers me EVEN MORE that people in the states w/ german or continental boxers are not utilizing the holter
I don't know if you're referring to anything I wrote, but again want to clarify what Cathy told me, and that is that she is not aware of any Continental Boxer without English lines being affected by ARVC.  She has never told me the disease does not exist in Continental lines.  She also has done many holter tests on her dogs and none showed signs of ARVC.  I will continue to holter mine as well, even though until I become aware of well-bred Continental Boxers without English lines being affected by ARVC will continue to think it is very rare in that population.
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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2010, 05:43:23 PM »
it makes me absolutely insane when people (from all over), make the statement that "our lines don't have this".   ::) You don't know what you don't test for, and while people think holtering is not available outside of the states, it only takes 1 person to spend $500 (or less if they dont' buy from Alba), to have a holter monitor, and $25 (ok, maybe ad $5 for postage), for the tapes to be read.  It bothers me EVEN MORE that people in the states w/ german or continental boxers are not utilizing the holter
I don't know if you're referring to anything I wrote, but again want to clarify what Cathy told me, and that is that she is not aware of any Continental Boxer without English lines being affected by ARVC.  She has never told me the disease does not exist in Continental lines.  She also has done many holter tests on her dogs and none showed signs of ARVC.  I will continue to holter mine as well, even though until I become aware of well-bred Continental Boxers without English lines being affected by ARVC will continue to think it is very rare in that population.

No this is not in reference to anything you've written.  My "rant" derives from a general sentiment from a large group of people. 

Good for you for continuing to holter, I can only hope that more people/breeders start doing it. 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:25:41 AM by Newcastle »
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Lisa

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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2010, 06:24:33 PM »
Based on last night's webinar though, if dogs drop dead a less than 2 years old Dr. Meurs thinks the PVCs were caused by a virus or something else other than ARVC, so if she's right it's not surprising that they tested negative for this gene.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:26:56 AM by Newcastle »
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fairview Boxers

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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2010, 07:25:30 PM »
Dr. Meurs said that a dog affected under 6 is in her opinion MOST LIKELY from a virus, not definitely!  There are lines that DIE from ARVC that young, I know first hand!!!

I don't see how continental dogs can be clear from a disease when most don't know what their dogs die from!  I have been told, point blank, that it isn't any of my business what their dog died from!!!!!  :o
Also, you have to consider that continental dogs have a VERY high rate of cancer in their lines... at least from the research I have done so far on the ones that know what hey died from! 
You keep stating that the continental dogs crossed with UK have a higher prevelence of ARVC, this is interesting consider that UK has such a low incidence of the disease and such longevity behind them!!!!!  AS/SAS is more of an issue with UK lines...  I would be interested in seeing what lines crossed between UK and continental produced ARVC!!!!
Kat Medved
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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2010, 08:05:41 PM »
I don't see how continental dogs can be clear from a disease when most don't know what their dogs die from!  I have been told, point blank, that it isn't any of my business what their dog died from!
I wouldn't have anything to do with a breeder who wouldn't share that information with me and suggest you don't either.  I was able to get a tremendous amount of information on the health and longevity of almost all of Mukki's relatives for a few to several generations back, plus some aunts, uncles, etc.  Most American breeders don't know what their dogs die from either, but most responsible breeders do and I expect it's the same over there.

You keep stating that the continental dogs crossed with UK have a higher prevelence of ARVC
If by "you" you mean me, I didn't write that.  Cathy told me that the only Continental dogs she's aware of who have had ARVC (and there have only been a few) were Scandinavian with some English bloodlines some generations back.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:27:33 AM by Newcastle »
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fairview Boxers

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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2010, 08:51:59 PM »
I am not trying to be rude, but the point of research to try and find out information, BEFORE a breeding!!!!  That is why good breeders research prior to a breeding, or have a trusted mentor that they go to for this information! 
Other than Gio, have you seen me personally do any more Continental breedings to date????  I research what I am interested in, and make judgments from there!  I have found several breeders from the Continent that were wonderful help, and others that were no help at ALL!!!  However, it doesn't mean they are POOR breeders if they don't understand something we do here!  It makes them different!!!! Things are quite the same in other countries as they are here!!!!!  Things we take for granted!  Also, I don't always trust the first response I get!!! Because I have been "fooled" before!!!!  So, if I hear one thing, I research it to see what other tidbits I can get on the subject!!!!


« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:28:06 AM by Newcastle »
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Lisa

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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2010, 09:04:34 PM »
UK has such a low incidence of the disease and such longevity behind them!
How do we know this?

I am not trying to be rude, but the point of research to try and find out information, BEFORE a breeding!!!!
I disagree that research should only be done before a breeding.  I never intend to breed a litter but am still very much interested in the health and future of all Boxers.  Also, I'm likely to lose both of my males within the next few years and am researching in part to help find my next puppy.  It can take a long time to find the right one.

The more information shared the better it will be for all of us and the breed IMO.  I don't understand why there is so much desire for secrecy, unless someone doesn't want people to know about a problem in their bloodlines so they can still sell puppies.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:28:43 AM by Newcastle »
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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2010, 10:16:40 AM »
Quote
How do we know this?

Because the UK Breed Council is very much on top of health issues in the breed, and has been tracking the disease in their dogs. Longevity is known because breeders announce when their dogs die, how old they were, and what they died from. Certainly some dogs still die young, but on average UK dogs tend to live longer than NA dogs.

Quote
I don't understand why there is so much desire for secrecy, unless someone doesn't want people to know about a problem in their bloodlines so they can still sell puppies.

The point is that it is not anyones else's information to share. If it were our bloodlines, and someone were looking to buy a puppy or breed to one of our dogs, I've no doubt we would provide the details to that person.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:29:12 AM by Newcastle »
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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2010, 01:10:55 PM »
I disagree that research should only be done before a breeding.  I never intend to breed a litter but am still very much interested in the health and future of all Boxers.  Also, I'm likely to lose both of my males within the next few years and am researching in part to help find my next puppy.  It can take a long time to find the right one.

I never said that!!!!  I said "I am not trying to be rude, but the point of research to try and find out information, BEFORE a breeding!!!!"
Meaning that MOST of the research on a line should be done BEFORE a breeding is carried out.... I never said to stop researching after a breeding has been done!  No breeder on this WOULD say that! 
Lisa, it sounds like you are making the Continental lines out to be the "cure" for the breed problems... There isn't a cure.... Only research and GOOD/SMART breeding will help this breed!
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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2010, 04:24:42 PM »
the UK Breed Council is very much on top of health issues in the breed, and has been tracking the disease in their dogs. Longevity is known because breeders announce when their dogs die, how old they were, and what they died from. Certainly some dogs still die young, but on average UK dogs tend to live longer than NA dogs.
Thanks.  It seems to me that there is a similar situation in Germany with the BK and all their testing requirements before allowing registered puppies to be produced, and tracking various diseases, though this one hasn't been seen there as far as I know.

Lisa, it sounds like you are making the Continental lines out to be the "cure" for the breed problems
I am doing no such thing.  Mukki's breeder, who has been very involved in German/Continental lines for many years, mentioned to me recently that she's not aware of a single Continental dog without any English lines being affected by ARVC.  I found that very interesting and asked here to see if anyone had evidence to the contrary, and so far have not found any.  No one is willing to tell me of any ARVC-affected dogs they know about privately either, so I am still not aware of any.

What's with all the caps and exclamation points?  It seems like you are angry about something.  I just want to calmly discuss and learn.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:30:45 AM by Newcastle »
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Re: ARVC Webinar Tuesday night at 9PM Eastern
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2010, 04:48:20 PM »
Quote
It seems to me that there is a similar situation in Germany with the BK and all their testing requirements before allowing registered puppies to be produced

It would seem that way, but remember "all their testing" only includes Doppler and hip/spine x-rays at 2 years old.

Quote
Mukki's breeder, who has been very involved in German/Continental lines for many years, mentioned to me recently that she's not aware of a single Continental dog without any English lines being affected by ARVC.  I found that very interesting and asked here to see if anyone had evidence to the contrary, and so far have not found any.  No one is willing to tell me of any ARVC-affected dogs they know about privately either, so I am still not aware of any.

If you don't trust us, that is your prerogative - but why then should we trust you and, through you, Claudia in saying she's never heard of ARVC in Continental dogs? Will you list here every single breeder she's spoken to and the specific dogs she's inquired about?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:30:33 AM by Newcastle »
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