Author Topic: A creative way to solve the puppy issue?  (Read 2749 times)

Theresa

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A creative way to solve the puppy issue?
« on: May 27, 2010, 10:44:54 AM »
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Bruins_Boxer

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Re: A creative way to solve the puppy issue?
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2010, 10:54:15 AM »
Md has a similar law in the works .
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whitepupzoe

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Re: A creative way to solve the puppy issue?
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2010, 10:55:45 AM »
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"I don't want other people's problems. I just wanted to start fresh," Ellis said.


Ugh I hate when people say that about rescues!  :wall:

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Newcastle

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Re: A creative way to solve the puppy issue?
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2010, 11:46:52 AM »
Much as I dislike pet stores and advise people never to buy a puppy from one, I can't support these laws; firstly, because they restrict trade of a product that is not illegal, and secondly, because it would be really easy to change the definition of "pet store" to include responsible breeders who sell from their homes.

I had to laugh ironically at this part, though:

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In February, Animal Humane New Mexico opened a boutique-style adoption center with just a few hand-picked animals mostly puppies, many of them pure-bred dogs that were abandoned or rescued by the shelter so that people could "shop" for shelter dogs in a pleasant, retail-like environment.

In other words, they opened a pet store.....  :wall:
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boxer pal

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Re: A creative way to solve the puppy issue?
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2010, 02:26:03 PM »
I wish it weren't such a complicated deal, but I do tend to agree with Jennifer's assesment on this.  This type of legislation just makes it easier for arista's to push more restrictions with such ambiguous terminology that it ends up hurting the legitmate breeders, farmers and small time feedlots. 
On another postivie note, the pet store that recently opened in our one and only mall, closed this week!  The mall owners were deluged with e-mails asked them to be removed.  I don't know if the messages were the reason or if they left voluntarily, but they are gone.   :thumbsup:
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TobysMomma

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Re: A creative way to solve the puppy issue?
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2010, 08:53:45 PM »
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"The fact of the matter is that puppies sold by pet stores frequently come from highly reputable breeders who provide healthy loving pets to the public," said Michael Maddox, vice president of government affairs and general counsel for the Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council, an industry group based in Washington, D.C.
I personally don't know of any highly reputable breeder that sells puppies through a pet store. 

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"Notwithstanding isolated anecdotal stories that misrepresent pet store puppies, the vast majority of customers who bring home their canine companion from a pet store are supremely satisfied with the experience."
But do they know or care about what goes on behind the scenes and that they are supporting puppy mills.


I had to laugh ironically at this part, though:

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In February, Animal Humane New Mexico opened a boutique-style adoption center with just a few hand-picked animals — mostly puppies, many of them pure-bred dogs that were abandoned or rescued by the shelter — so that people could "shop" for shelter dogs in a pleasant, retail-like environment.


In other words, they opened a pet store.....  :wall:
The difference is they are offering dogs that have been abandoned or rescued, not dogs from puppymills or BYB. Big difference.
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BoxerWB

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Re: A creative way to solve the puppy issue?
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2010, 10:01:57 PM »
If I thought the law wasn't going to be (or even just could be) twisted into something against breeders, I'd be for it because I don't think I've ever come across a "responsible" pet store that really cared about where the pups went. 

But like Jennifer, I'm skeptical.  The wording of the law is also important -- there is a law proposed in NY right now that *could* be read as requiring you to have AC for your dog! The wording is vague and could easily be abused .... language is vital!!
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Newcastle

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Re: A creative way to solve the puppy issue?
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2010, 10:34:11 PM »
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The difference is they are offering dogs that have been abandoned or rescued, not dogs from puppymills or BYB. Big difference.

Not so big, really.  A sale is a sale is a sale, regardless of what you want to call it.

I'd wager that 95% or more of the dogs they sell in the "adoption boutique" came from what they would call "puppymills" or "BYB".  (In reality most probably came from commercial breeders that do not fit the original definition of "puppymill" - a sub-standard facility where dogs are filthy and neglected - but do fit today's "anyone who breeds more dogs than we think they should" definition.)  It's really the height of hypocrisy - AR groups rant and rage about how "puppymill" dogs are so unhealthy, have temperament and behavior problems, and die at early ages because their dams were "overbred" or "inbred", yet they turn around and tout those same exact dogs, when purchased from a shelter, as happy, healthy, perfect pets.  As if the process of entering a shelter automatically cures all of the ills the dog brought with it from the breeder.  (And I'm certainly not trying to say that all shelter dogs are unhealthy or temperamentally unsound - but neither, in fact, are the vast majority of pet store dogs.) 

I'm all for putting pet stores out of business by drying up the demand for their products, but making those products, in effect, illegal is only going to raise prices to the consumer and drive volume breeders underground - so there will be even less regulation and inspection than there is now.  And surely that's of no benefit to everyone, especially the dogs.
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TobysMomma

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Re: A creative way to solve the puppy issue?
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2010, 11:46:08 PM »
If I thought the law wasn't going to be (or even just could be) twisted into something against breeders, I'd be for it because I don't think I've ever come across a "responsible" pet store that really cared about where the pups went. 

But like Jennifer, I'm skeptical.  The wording of the law is also important -- there is a law proposed in NY right now that *could* be read as requiring you to have AC for your dog! The wording is vague and could easily be abused .... language is vital!!
I totally agree. I have yet to see a pet store sell a pup with a take back agreement. And I also am skeptical of the long term abuse and misuse of many laws that are passed. Even with the best of intentions the government manages to screw things up and the result is often the opposite of what was intended.
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The difference is they are offering dogs that have been abandoned or rescued, not dogs from puppymills or BYB. Big difference.

Not so big, really.  A sale is a sale is a sale, regardless of what you want to call it.
The difference is whose pocket your are lining with the purchase.
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Newcastle

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Re: A creative way to solve the puppy issue?
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2010, 01:41:52 AM »
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The difference is whose pocket your are lining with the purchase.

Yes, to an extent, and we talk about that here even with "BYB" vs. responsible breeders.  This is another area where education will be light-years more effective than legislation, though. The purchase of a puppy from a pet store is at least two transactions removed from the breeder (in most cases) - the broker buys the puppies from the breeder, and the pet store buys the puppies from the broker.  Prohibiting the sale of puppies in pet stores at a local level simply means that the broker will sell their puppies in areas that don't have such a law; it really won't affect the number of puppies sold in pet stores overall. 

I've developed quite a healthy mistrust of any new laws, and tend to first look at whether they're addressing a problem that isn't covered by existing laws, second at whether they have even a small chance of actually doing what they purport to do, and third at how easily they could be misinterpreted and misapplied.  (I don't generally make it past the first two!)  This has become one of my "words to live by" quotes:

"You do not examine legislation in light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered."

~~ Lyndon B. Johnson
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TobysMomma

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Re: A creative way to solve the puppy issue?
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2010, 02:02:07 AM »

 Prohibiting the sale of puppies in pet stores at a local level simply means that the broker will sell their puppies in areas that don't have such a law; it really won't affect the number of puppies sold in pet stores overall. 


Assuming that puppy brokers don't have much 'new virgin territory' to replace these local territories that have passed a ban, I don't see how the numbers of puppies being sold in pet stores would not decrease when this law is implemented even if the numbers are small it is still a reduction. Also it makes a statement to the puppy mill industry (not that they care unless and untill it hits them in the pocket book but maybe they will take notice) and also to the public that may not be as educated as we are about the issues. IMO as long as the ban is not twisted/abused it could be helpful in the fight against puppy mills. I agree that is a big 'if'
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Newcastle

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Re: A creative way to solve the puppy issue?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2010, 07:39:39 AM »
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Assuming that puppy brokers don't have much 'new virgin territory' to replace these local territories that have passed a ban

I'm not sure that's a valid assumption, though.  If a pet store can't sell puppies in West Hollywood, they'll just open up shop in East Hollywood where they can sell pets.  If a number of communities band together to prohibit puppy sales in a large area, then you'll see "puppy super stores" in the outlying areas and higher prices for puppies because they're now more difficult to buy.

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Also it makes a statement to the puppy mill industry

You'd have to have a whole slew of bans before it made any kind of impact on the people who run actual puppy mills, who don't pay attention to existing welfare laws so probably won't be bothered by puppy sales bans so long as they have brokers (or, for some, direct buyers).  It may make a statement to the commercial breeding industry - and it may well goad them into filing a lawsuit against the cities over restriction of trade.

Someone mentioned the other day that we're gearing up to see a "war on puppies" like we've seen a war on drugs for the last what, 30 years?   And we know how successful the war on drugs has been - imagine what will happen with a war on puppies, when a far greater percentage of the public wants puppies.  People think $1,000-2,000 is expensive for a well-bred puppy - wait until the average price is $10,000+ because the conditions responsible breeders are required to meet before they can breed and sell puppies are so restrictive and expensive.  "Moonshine" breeders will thrive, breeding puppies in easily-abandoned makeshift facilities deep in the woods and selling them on the side of the road for a "cheap" $1500 - and tons of people will flock to them because they won' be able to justify spending 1/4 of their net annual income on a puppy.  Shelter prices will increase accordingly, and shelters will continue to become more and more restrictive about who can get a dog from them.  Euthanasia rates will skyrocket as HSUS puppy SWAT teams find the moonshiner's facilities and seize all the dogs, dumping them at the local shelter who thinks it's kinder to kill a dog than allow someone without a fenced yard to buy it.  The moonshiners won't care, because they'll have six or eight or ten of these facilities and will just set up a new one in a new spot.  Since they're flying under the radar, they don't have to worry about inspections, welfare standards, sanitation, socialization, exercise, etc. - they can just breed and sell without all that "bothersome" animal welfare stuff, so it's easy to close down one facility and start up another.  (And "facility" is really too grand of a word - we're talking about rabbit hutches, basically.) 

It's odd to me that the animal rights industry - which is so cynical and pessimistic about most human behavior - continually fails to see that making breeding illegal, by whatever convoluted process, won't get rid of the "bad" breeders, it will simply drive them underground.  People who don't follow existing laws aren't going to follow new ones.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 07:52:08 AM by Newcastle »
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TobysMomma

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Re: A creative way to solve the puppy issue?
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2010, 11:39:40 AM »
A war on puppies would go over like prohobition. Hopefully the pendulum won't swing to that extreme but in this day and age nothing would really surprise me anymore. I see things happening in our country that I didn't think were possible, that sensible people would step up and stop but it IS happening Anyway, one other comment...
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I'm not sure that's a valid assumption, though.  If a pet store can't sell puppies in West Hollywood, they'll just open up shop in East Hollywood where they can sell pets.  If a number of communities band together to prohibit puppy sales in a large area, then you'll see "puppy super stores" in the outlying areas and higher prices for puppies because they're now more difficult to buy.

I am sure that is true to an extent, it boils down to a numbers issue. There will be some people who will leave the area to go find a puppy or just order one off the internet or whatever but I am convinced that there are also a number of people that will adopt/rescue a dog instead. I have faith that some people would listen to the reasoning for the ban...It would be fascinating to know the percentages of people that choose to adopt instead  but....can we even  trust that we would get accurate reports on the effects of the ban without either side putting their spin on it? That is a whole nother subject.
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Miguel

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Re: A creative way to solve the puppy issue?
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2010, 12:33:47 PM »
I'm having issues opening up the page. Maybe when I get home I'll have better luck. But for now I have just read a few of the replies.

"boutique-style adoption center"

This just makes me think on how gullible people can be. Ugh.  :wall: I'll try to get the link to open before I say anymore.
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