Author Topic: Pedigrees and Lines  (Read 2861 times)

winterbabies

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Pedigrees and Lines
« on: April 13, 2010, 11:59:18 PM »
I was wondering if you guys could educate me a little on reading pedigrees. I read a lot of people talking about 'lines' but what are the differences between lines and how does a newbie try to differentiate between them? For example I see Turo in a lot of pedigrees or Faedorn, or I see famous kennel names like Jacquet's, Wood's End or Hi-Tech, and sometimes there are so many kennel names that I havent' heard of and they don't go back far back enough for me to know the origins. Can someone sort of layout what the historical lines are, and what their differences are?
Karen
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Re: Pedigrees and Lines
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2010, 06:36:19 AM »
Great question...I too would like to know
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Re: Pedigrees and Lines
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2010, 09:07:05 AM »
Somewhere there's a great article about "lines" vs. "dogs" but I can't for the life of me remember where it is now. :( 

Some people talk about their "line" when really they only have a few dogs they've bred.  A true line is one that has generations behind it, and that produces consistent type down through the generations.  By necessity, a "line" requires "linebreeding" - breeding related dogs (the degree to which they're related varies).  There is also - just to confuse things ;) - the "tail line" in any pedigree.  In dogs, we talk mostly about the "tail male line" (in horses, the "tail female line" is often considered more important).  Last year's Top Twenty winner, for example, Ch. Duba-Dae's Who's Your Daddy, has a tail male line that goes back to Ch. Bentbrook's Image of High Noon, who himself goes back to Ch. Millan's Fashion Hint, a dog found in most North American pedigrees.  The tail male line looks at the top of the pedigree - the dog, his sire, his sire's sire, etc., while the tail female line looks at the bottom.

As far as differences between the lines - often a line will be known for some particular trait, but not always; it's often just a 'style' that the dogs produce overall.  (Non-conformationally, Faerdorn dogs, for example, are known for their ball-obsession. ;))  The nature of dogs being what it is, "bad" things about lines seem to be more well-known that good things at times - fairly or not. 
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winterbabies

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Re: Pedigrees and Lines
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2010, 09:37:47 AM »
Thanks, so some more questions ;)
So by looking at the male tail line-is this saying that the male's characteristics are more important in a breeding?
For one to be considered a 'line' how many generations do they need?
How many original lines were there, and if that means they were line bred, does this mean there are a small amount of genetic individuals?
What are some of the most well known lines famous for?

I am finding that I must be drawn to a certain look, it seems that I find some of the same dogs in some of the pedigrees I look at.
Karen
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Re: Pedigrees and Lines
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2010, 10:32:27 AM »
Quote
So by looking at the male tail line-is this saying that the male's characteristics are more important in a breeding?

Many Boxer breeders seem to think so. ;)  Certainly males have more opportunity to influence the breed, because they can produce far more puppies than a bitch can.  However, breeding programs are built on bitches, not dogs.  And not only do you want a great bitch in your kennel, but your best bet (especially if you're looking to keep a bitch puppy) is to breed her to a dog out of a great bitch - because you know he'll have her X chromosome, and will pass it on to his daughters.

Quote
For one to be considered a 'line' how many generations do they need?

This really varies, depending on how good the breedings turn out - some breeders breed for years but never really develop a line that carries any consistency.  (It's harder now that the breed is well-established to develop a line, in any case, because most traits are fixed, with only a slight degree of variability in the grand scheme of things.)

Quote
How many original lines were there, and if that means they were line bred, does this mean there are a small amount of genetic individuals?

Well, the Boxer breed traces back to one specific bitch, Meta von der Passage; and a little further on, especially in this country, to the "four horsemen": Sigurd vom Dom, Dorian von Marienhof, Utz vom Dom, and Lustig vom Dom.  These four Boxers were bred extensively and their children and grandchildren bred back to one of the four, or their children or grandchildren.  The ABC has a Boxer history that contains much of this:

http://www.americanboxerclub.org/boxer_history.html

So, yes, we do have a rather small gene pool to begin with, and then we've had some bottlenecks (dogs that everyone bred to) such as Bang Away and Traper.  The infusion of imported dogs, and the increasing availability of frozen semen from overseas, is helping to widen that pool a bit - other countries have had their own bottlenecks, of course, but they've been different from ours in many cases.  (Plus those bottlenecks are getting further and further back, so may have less and less influence on future generations.)

Quote
What are some of the most well known lines famous for?

Hmm....well, Salgray has a pretty consistent head type, and Hi-Tech males tend to 'stamp' their look on their progeny (especially those descending from Arbitrage)....



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winterbabies

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Re: Pedigrees and Lines
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2010, 12:09:27 PM »
Thank you interesting. So anymore tips I can use when looking at a pedigree, it's hard when it seems like I'm just looking at a bunch of names on a chart. To get familiar with some of the more well known breeders I went through the list of dams and sires of merit..and then I also try to google the names of the newer kennel names on a chart to see if I can find a website or any more info. Is there anything else I can do when researching pedigrees?
Karen
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Re: Pedigrees and Lines
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2010, 12:24:34 PM »
Contact the  breeders. :)  Most are happy to "talk dogs" and will give you lots of information on their dogs, backgrounds, etc. if they think you have a sincere interest.  Go to shows and buy catalogs - put a mark by the dogs you like, and then after you get home research their pedigrees to see if there's consistency.  (It's very different sometimes, seeing a dog in person compared to in pictures.)  Once you've developed a relationship with a few breeders, you can ask them about other lines - but keep in mind that not all breeders will want to share what they consider gossip (while others will be only too happy to!), and sometimes a bad experience (or a good one) can cloud a person's judgment.  I look for trends, when asking about breeders/lines/dogs I don't know - if I hear the same thing from several unassociated people at different times, there's a pretty good chance it's accurate.
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boxmommy

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Re: Pedigrees and Lines
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2011, 05:52:14 PM »

Quote
How many original lines were there, and if that means they were line bred, does this mean there are a small amount of genetic individuals?

Well, the Boxer breed traces back to one specific bitch, Meta von der Passage; and a little further on, especially in this country, to the "four horsemen": Sigurd vom Dom, Dorian von Marienhof, Utz vom Dom, and Lustig vom Dom.  These four Boxers were bred extensively and their children and grandchildren bred back to one of the four, or their children or grandchildren.  The ABC has a Boxer history that contains much of this:http://www.americanboxerclub.org/boxer_history.html

Actually most lines do not trace back to Meta von der Passage.  The German Boxer
Club stud books include over a thousand boxers whose ancestry is not known, most
of which are from breedings of two different breeds to come up with something that
looks like the boxer standard of the time.  Also, if you go to that site and look at the Dam of Merit Bitch lines, you will see that most of them do not trace back to Meta and
some even trace to these "boxers" of unknown parentage.

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Re: Pedigrees and Lines
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2011, 09:31:08 AM »
The world of the boxer book has a few sections on famous kennels from different countries . Which dogs made an impact on the breed and lots of pictures of some of the top dogs .
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Re: Pedigrees and Lines
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2011, 09:42:56 AM »
The world of the boxer book has a few sections on famous kennels from different countries . Which dogs made an impact on the breed and lots of pictures of some of the top dogs .

This is an awesome book
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Re: Pedigrees and Lines
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2011, 07:24:51 PM »
It is a great book. We have one in the trailer and have brought it out on more then one occasion for reference when we are at a show.