Author Topic: omfg i never seen anything like this  (Read 11495 times)

BoxerPerson

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Re: omfg i never seen anything like this
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2009, 04:37:29 PM »
Sorry if you  think that statement snarky, it wasn't meant to be.

Education is not the ONLY answer...look at this forum.  We try to educate, give information to persons the request it and what do they do?  Just what they want :wall:
If someone WANTS badly enuff, they will do exactly what they want to get the object of their desire, even if that means going against all the education they received. 

I don't profess to have the answer...I wish I did.  All I know is SOMETHING needs to be done, and I really do think that tightening up the laws AND making those responsible for upholding those laws accountable. How can that be such a bad idea?  Toss some education into the mix and MAYBE, just maybe, we might have a solution.  But doing nothing except complaining that these new laws, etc are the works of AR groups isn't going to fix this problem, is it?

I will do whatever it takes to get information out to people.  I even put together that educational flyer for Carolyn a while back.  Who else is willing to do something?  Maybe we can start something on here...ideas???
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Re: omfg i never seen anything like this
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2009, 12:51:37 AM »
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“A key piece of legislation is missing from the regulatory and enforcement scheme in Minnesota,” said Fry. “There is no State law allowing intervention or enforcement at all.”

That's completely untrue. Minnesota's "Prevention of Cruelty to Animals" law gives the state just those powers.  To wit:

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Upon application of any agent appointed by the federation or a county or district society, it shall be the duty of, any sheriff or the agent's deputy or any police officer to investigate any alleged violation of the law relative to cruelty to animals, and to arrest any person found violating those laws. It shall also be the duty of those officers to take possession of any animals in their respective jurisdictions which have been cruelly treated, and deliver the same to the proper officers of the county or district for custody and care.

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Penalty.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this subdivision, a person who fails to comply with any provision of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor. A person convicted of a second or subsequent violation of subdivision 1 or 7 within five years of a previous violation of subdivision 1 or 7 is guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

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Restrictions.
If a person is convicted of violating this section, the court shall require that pet or companion animals that have not been seized by a peace officer or agent and are in the custody or control of the person must be turned over to a peace officer or other appropriate officer or agent unless the court determines that the person is able and fit to provide adequately for an animal. If the evidence indicates lack of proper and reasonable care of an animal, the burden is on the person to affirmatively demonstrate by clear and convincing evidence that the person is able and fit to have custody of and provide adequately for an animal. The court may limit the person's further possession or custody of pet or companion animals, and may impose other conditions the court considers appropriate, including, but not limited to:
(1) imposing a probation period during which the person may not have ownership, custody, or control of a pet or companion animal;
(2) requiring periodic visits of the person by an animal control officer or agent appointed pursuant to section 343.01, subdivision 1;
(3) requiring performance by the person of community service; and
(4) requiring the person to receive psychological, behavioral, or other counseling.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=343

I read a few comments saying that the state cannot inspect USDA-regulated facilities, but can find nothing in the law that corroborates this.  I did find this:

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The rules adopted by the board must provide for the cost recovery for the activities of the board with respect to licensing, inspection, and enforcement of civil penalties and must provide for cooperation with the United States Department of Agriculture Animal Plant Health Inspection Service program and for reference of complaints to local enforcement authorities. Rules must include, but are not limited to, requirements governing the care of dogs and cats, minimum conditions, and maintenance of quarters and kennels, the humane treatment of dogs and cats while in the kennels, maintenance of detailed records showing the person from whom any dog or cat aged over three months has been received, and in the case of a dealer, including address, driver's license number or Social Security number, and to whom it has been transferred, and preservation of the records for a minimum period of two years.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=347.35

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If someone WANTS badly enuff, they will do exactly what they want to get the object of their desire, even if that means going against all the education they received.

Yes - and even if that means going against the law. ;)

It appears this was a legitimate case of neglect and cruelty; it also appears that the existing laws would have adequately addressed the situation, had they been implemented and enforced properly in the first place. 
Jennifer Walker
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BoxerPerson

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Re: omfg i never seen anything like this
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2009, 09:20:17 AM »
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Yes - and even if that means going against the law. ;)
As I mentioned before...people will do what they want.  But if laws are strict enough, possibly they will re-think...not everyone as I mentioned, but some.
Claire-Mom to Ollie, Zoe, Phoebe, Willie & Snookie

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Re: omfg i never seen anything like this
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2009, 09:30:07 AM »
Claire-I am sorry, but i have to disagree.  Look at how strict gun laws and drug laws are.  People still get guns and drugs.  Stricter penalties DO NOT work.  Education and enforcement of current laws are the answer IMO. 
Vicky

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Re: omfg i never seen anything like this
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2010, 09:03:22 AM »
Claire-I am sorry, but i have to disagree.  Look at how strict gun laws and drug laws are.  People still get guns and drugs.  Stricter penalties DO NOT work.  Education and enforcement of current laws are the answer IMO. 
Vicky, education is one thing, not everyone is condusive to being educated...but a stiff fine and maybe some jail time may help with that ;) 
Then you mention enforcement...that is a whole nuther issue. Licensing dogs is mandatory in most of the US. Much of these fees pays for AC officers, not all, but most.  If people do not pay these fees, then services are cut.  Vicky, you mentioned a few times that you are one that chooses not to pay a licensing fee for your pups, you have your justification for not doing so, but you are also breaking the law and possibly in your area contributing to less enforcement of the laws that would protect these animals.   
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Re: omfg i never seen anything like this
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2010, 12:45:17 PM »
What an evil woman.  We should dip her.  I am sure she wouldnt like that.
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Re: omfg i never seen anything like this
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2010, 09:56:16 AM »
Clare, in theory you're correct.  Stricter laws and harsher punishments would lead to fewer people breeding dogs carelessly or to excess.  The reality, however, is entirely different.  Stricter laws and harsher punishments have led to fewer "good' breeders breeding carefully and judiciously, and more "bad" breeders going underground.  This means that not only is the supply of well-bred dogs diminished, but the moderate control there was over "bad" breeders who were in the open is now minimal because they're all hiding their breeding operations in the backwoods and selling their dogs on the side of the road.  Not only is there no more AC or USDA inspection (since they drop their kennel/breeder license), but there's now also no consumer inspection by people coming to pick up puppies.  True, you might lose 10% of the "bad" breeders by creating stricter laws, but you'll lose 50%+ of the "good" breeders, because those are the people that follow the laws (and so don't need them in the first place!).
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Re: omfg i never seen anything like this
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2010, 12:05:03 PM »
True, you might lose 10% of the "bad" breeders by creating stricter laws, but you'll lose 50%+ of the "good" breeders, because those are the people that follow the laws (and so don't need them in the first place!).

There will always be certain ones that will circumvent the system & laws, that is just a fact unfortunately...but "good breeders" should not fear new laws or stricter laws...they should work with the law makers to wrtie these laws to stop these
bad/irresponsible/cruel (I won't call them breeders because they aren't...) puppy factories!  They should help them to realize the differences between the breeding methodologies, why a reputible breeder does this, etc and how a pupppy mill's methods cause this and that.

I don't know Jen, seems to me that the more people protest the laws the more lax the laws have become and the cruelty continues. 
Claire-Mom to Ollie, Zoe, Phoebe, Willie & Snookie

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Re: omfg i never seen anything like this
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2010, 01:27:07 PM »
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but "good breeders" should not fear new laws or stricter laws

It's not fear, Claire, it's common sense.  If you write laws that make it nearly impossible for home breeders to breed, home breeders will stop breeding.  Good breeders (and others who oppose new restrictive laws) understand that one of the worst things you can do for dogs in this country is to make it harder to breed and buy well-bred puppies - because you're simply increasing the demand for carelessly-bred puppies, or those imported from countries that don't have welfare laws. 

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...they should work with the law makers to wrtie these laws to stop these
bad/irresponsible/cruel (I won't call them breeders because they aren't...) puppy factories!

There are already laws in place to do this. That's the entire point.  Non-veterinarians performing c-sections is already illegal.  Forcing dogs to live in inches of their own waste is already illegal.  The newest anti-breeding laws impose limits on how many intact dogs a person can own, which does nothing whatsoever to improve the conditions of the dogs in filthy, neglectful, or abusive situations.  Many, many abusive breeders only have three or four intact dogs - and many excellent breeders have ten or more (especially if you consider co-ownerships, which many of these laws count as "owned dogs" even if they live in another state).

What new laws would you write that don't duplicate existing laws, don't restrict the ability of responsible breeders to produce well-bred litters and sell them to carefully-selected homes, don't limit the ability of puppy buyers to find well-bred puppies, and would end (not just force into hiding) abusive and neglectful breeding?

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They should help them to realize the differences between the breeding methodologies, why a reputible breeder does this, etc and how a pupppy mill's methods cause this and that.

Lawmakers don't care about that.  They don't have the time to; with as many bills as they have to address each session, they're lucky if they even understand the basic concepts behind new legislation.  Most lawmakers don't even care if a proposed law is Constitutional or not - that's for the courts to decide.  What lawmakers do care about is whether a law will work, how much it will cost, and if it has popular support. 

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I don't know Jen, seems to me that the more people protest the laws the more lax the laws have become and the cruelty continues.

The laws haven't become more lax - most animal welfare laws are basically unchanged since the 1970s.  Enforcement has become more lax, but new laws won't improve that and will probably make it worse.
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BoxerPerson

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Re: omfg i never seen anything like this
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2010, 01:59:41 PM »
If the "old" laws, are not enforced there are many reasons, and one is, as I mentioned before lack of funding.  The thing that really gets me is that the fine and possible incarceration one would get for perpetrating this is virtually zip...a slap on the wrist.  Why would anyone take that seriously?  Including the ACO that busts their hump to catch the wrongful doer. 

I am not too sure I would buy into that co-ownership bit...seems strange when the licensing fee woud go to a particular area and show that the pup was owned by the person registering him/her.
Claire-Mom to Ollie, Zoe, Phoebe, Willie & Snookie

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Re: omfg i never seen anything like this
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2010, 02:44:00 PM »
Fixing Broken Windows: Restoring Order and Reducing Crime in Our Communities by George L. Kelling and Catherine Coles; this book is what drove down crime in NYC. So what does this book say about stopping crime, if you fix that broken window on a house right away there is less chance of vandalism and by doing that more serous crimes will not happen. So what NYC did was to start to enforce all laws no matter how small it was, (littering, spitting, jay walking, drinking in public) it did NOT add new laws to the books, but enforced the laws that are all ready there. Crime is just like vandalism you stop when it is small it does not get bigger. If you hit the puppy mills with fine after fine they will soon stop, but at the same time you fine pet stores for buying and selling unhealthy pets you will also see a drop in puppy mills. New laws have never fixed the problem, enforcement of laws the already their will.

BoxerPerson

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Re: omfg i never seen anything like this
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2010, 03:29:10 PM »
And as we all know, many of the laws on the books are so outdated they are laughable.  So enforcement of some of these that were written eons ago, would be a joke.  Some of these laws need beefing up, and some need to be removed.

I am not saying that enforcement is not necessary, it most certainly is, but so is righting the bad laws, outdated laws and making any enhancements or new laws that gets the point across.
Claire-Mom to Ollie, Zoe, Phoebe, Willie & Snookie

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Re: omfg i never seen anything like this
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2010, 03:51:54 PM »
There is a law being proposed right now that would force anyone who has 10 unaltered dogs over the age of 4 months to be classed the same as a pet shop / shelter . This would include many reputable breeders who keep their puppies longer than 8 weeks .

How many reputable breeeders would be able to afford to build indoor / outdoor runs as required by the laws ? I would not be able to afford to - never mind even getting a permit to build such a kennel . But yet one litter like my last (10) and i would be required to build one under the new law .

Does this really make sense ? To take puppies that would be raised in the home and force me to raise them outside in a kennel .
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Re: omfg i never seen anything like this
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2010, 03:57:33 PM »
Your right some laws are so old they are jokes, my first year in the NYPD I stopped a guy for jay walking after running his name he had a warrant he was placed under arrest while I was searching him I found a load 9mm on him. Last year stop a guy for spitting ran his name, wanted for a double murder for 1985. They might seem like jokes but if they where not enforced a murder and some looking to kill someone would still be out there. It is easier to stick your head in the sand and do nothing and say the laws are old and need to be changed, than to work with what you have and strictly enforce the laws out there and make changes.

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Re: omfg i never seen anything like this
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2010, 04:31:36 PM »
That is the saddest thing I have ever seen! 
When I worked as a Vet tech in late 2004 early 2005, there was a Boxer breeder that came into our clinic all the time with litters.  All of her Boxers were kennel dogs, and she had like 20, mostly bitches... 2  dogs to breed all those bitches... Anyhow, every litter came in with major heart murmurs, most at grade 4 by 8 weeks.  I would never assist in the room,  because I wasn't allowed to say anything to her about proper breeding practices, but the doc did try to tell her once, that her lines seemed to have a heart issue, whether it was the sires or the multiple dams he couldn't say, but that something wasn't right.... 
She said she wasn't worried about it, and would be switching out the studs in a few years.....
Now, that can't be controlled by laws, because she legally isn't breaking a law as long as she tells the puppy buyer they puppy has a murmur (I don't know if she did or not, and I am not going to speculate)...
BUT, she did take proper care and clean them... it still doesn't make her a good breeder of course..

PA has the laws in place to keep disgusting things like that from happening, but they are not enforced here.  Our dog warden really only shows up after fighting rings or big things like that.  I have never heard of them inspecting kennels.  We don't have any true puppy mills in our general area, but I do believe they are starting to crack down on our Lancaster mills....
Instead of new legislation, they need to enforce what is already in place!!!!  At least for PA!!!!
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