Author Topic: European Boxers -- Conformation or Schutzhund lines?  (Read 11636 times)

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Re: European Boxers -- Conformation or Schutzhund lines?
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2009, 04:24:08 PM »
Quote
I want to add something here - I don't think there is really a difference between the types of drives as you describe (the "four drives" versus "drive/motivation/persistence, etc.").  

That's what I meant by the two are not mutually exclusive; a high-drive dog will likely have high degrees of one or more of those other drives.  :)

I this dictionary definition of "drive" describes best (don't know why I didn't think of looking there earlier! :doh:)

"to strive vigorously toward a goal or objective; to work, play, or try wholeheartedly and with determination"

That's what I think many people mean when they say "high-drive" or "drivey"; a dog that gives its all in whatever it does, wholeheartedly and with determination - combined with a lot of energy. :)  Depending on the level of the specific "drives", as Jessica notes these dogs can be difficult to live with.  (And Jess is a pretty experienced owner/trainer; imagine what someone new to the breed would go through with the 'problem child' Jess describes!)  
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blynn03

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Re: European Boxers -- Conformation or Schutzhund lines?
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2009, 04:26:23 PM »
That's what I meant by the two are not mutually exclusive; a high-drive dog will likely have high degrees of one or more of those other drives.  :)

Okay, I don't disagree with that.  I just misread it the first time.   :blush:

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Re: European Boxers -- Conformation or Schutzhund lines?
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2009, 04:55:46 PM »
I view flight as the opposite of fight. If you remove flight, you get fight. It's possible to end up with an aggressive dog.

Since boxers need to work with humans, aggression is not appropriate in the boxer. Specifically, in police work, you need a dog that won't bite a child or stranger's hand off if they walk up and pet it while it's on duty (which, granted would be a failure of the handler, but in today's litigious society, bases need to be covered) or attack off command.
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blynn03

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Re: European Boxers -- Conformation or Schutzhund lines?
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2009, 05:09:39 PM »
I view flight as the opposite of fight. If you remove flight, you get fight. It's possible to end up with an aggressive dog.


Hmmmm......that is something I'll have to think more about.  Wouldn't that also mean that it's not possible to have a dog that's high in both fight AND flight (or low in both)?  I'm not arguing here, just trying to wrap my head around what you're saying.

I guess I kind of viewed these two drives as correlated, but not necessarily codependent on each other - that it's *possible* to get an aggressive dog if the fight drive is TOO high and flight drive TOO low - but that low flight drive doesn't necessarily equal too high of fight drive.  I don't even know if that makes sense.
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Re: European Boxers -- Conformation or Schutzhund lines?
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2009, 05:59:32 PM »
It's possible, and honestly, not very common to get dogs that are high in both (but somehow I did).

Bottom line, however, is that high drive in all areas is not desirable--balance and moderation in drives is.
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blynn03

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Re: European Boxers -- Conformation or Schutzhund lines?
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2009, 06:12:44 PM »
It's possible, and honestly, not very common to get dogs that are high in both (but somehow I did).

Haha - that's why I was confused - since you'd just gotten done talking about your dog who was high in both.   :laugh4:  "Possible but not common" is a very reasonable explanation.


Bottom line, however, is that high drive in all areas is not desirable--balance and moderation in drives is.

Oh I don't disagree with that  at all - especially for a pet dog.  But is there a such thing as "high enough, but not too high" for working dogs?  I would think you'd want your working dog to be at least a *little* bit more intense or "up" than your average pet.  It seems like the dogs that excel in working are able to work at a very high level, but also to bring it back down quite easily after the job is done.


(Also I want to add that I realize I've taken this tread quite far off track - I am in no way relating any of this drive talk to NA vs. Continentals.  I am not touching that discussion with a 10 foot pole.)

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Re: European Boxers -- Conformation or Schutzhund lines?
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2009, 06:15:58 PM »
If I understand the training of Sch and police work, they teach their dogs as if an assistance dog.  If they have their uniform on (or work collar, etc) then they are to have their game faces on, but if they are home relaxing with their "home" collar on, they are tamed down.... Now, I am sure that doesn't work for EACH dog, but my understanding of that type of training (on a whole) is that that is how they try to do it!  That is how they manage to have these animals as part of their families...
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Re: European Boxers -- Conformation or Schutzhund lines?
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2009, 07:48:27 PM »
(Also I want to add that I realize I've taken this tread quite far off track - I am in no way relating any of this drive talk to NA vs. Continentals.  I am not touching that discussion with a 10 foot pole.)
I am very much appreciating all this information on drives, and do not feel the thread is being taken off topic, so please continue the discussion, anyone who has anything more to add.  This thread was not intended to be about U.S. vs. European dogs at all, but from what type of breeder I should get my next puppy from -- Conformation, Schutzhund or other, if there are any other types of responsible Boxer breeders.  All information about the differences in those types and which would be best for me is of interest to me.
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Re: European Boxers -- Conformation or Schutzhund lines?
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2009, 07:53:47 PM »
The best working dogs can fit into any situation. As Kat said, even police dogs return home to their families in the evenings. They're pets too. As is such, no, I'd not want a dog that is higher than is necessary to make a good pet. . . And this why our breed's founding fathers (Stockmann, Wagner, etc) went to great lengths to reiterate that the best boxer is an all arounder--a great working dog, as well as a family and house dog.

On the flip side, my father had a term called "dead heads" to describe dogs that had low drive, and these dogs were just as undesirable because it was impossible to get them to do anything.
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Re: European Boxers -- Conformation or Schutzhund lines?
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2009, 09:45:10 PM »
Lisa:

You asked earlier about people breeding for Agility. I know there are a handful of people on the obedience boxer and agility boxer lists who are breeders that have "performance" in mind when they breed - most seem to at least do some conformation showing as well.  Performance being the blanket term for a dog who works/competes in any of the non-conformation areas.  These folks often have real "all-arounders" IMO -  dogs that do agility, obedience, therapy work, tracking, Schutz.  (I can't recall a single dog that does all of those, but it wouldn't surprise me to find one!)  There is even a woman (or maybe it's two) that is very active in herding with her boy.

Margaret's boy, Stryker, is from a breeder who does agility and rally at least, there are some initials on Stryker's dam that I don't recognize (may be non-AKC agility titles).
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Re: European Boxers -- Conformation or Schutzhund lines?
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2009, 08:16:34 AM »
Lisa,  my recommendation is to look for a performance dog if that is what you want. Now, if the style of Boxer you want is the continental, that is your choice, but choosing that style of Boxer just because you think it may "be better" in certain aspect really doesn't follow with facts.  If you look on the AKC site (which granted it is old on there 2008) the top 20 dogs only one kennel (from what I can tell) uses crosses with imports, the rest are all NA... (correct me if I am wrong)....
If you are looking for a performance dog, and while there are many kennels that are breeding right now that don't perform themselves but have dogs that would do well, my suggestion to you is look for a perfomance specific puppy!!!! From ANY country background, as long as it is quality, you should not have too much of a problem!!!!

;)
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blynn03

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Re: European Boxers -- Conformation or Schutzhund lines?
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2009, 08:17:16 AM »
The best working dogs can fit into any situation. As Kat said, even police dogs return home to their families in the evenings. They're pets too. As is such, no, I'd not want a dog that is higher than is necessary to make a good pet. . . And this why our breed's founding fathers (Stockmann, Wagner, etc) went to great lengths to reiterate that the best boxer is an all arounder--a great working dog, as well as a family and house dog.

On the flip side, my father had a term called "dead heads" to describe dogs that had low drive, and these dogs were just as undesirable because it was impossible to get them to do anything.

I guess when I keep thinking of a "pet" - I'm thinking of the average boxer around here, which is NOT well-bred  (unfortunately these dogs *do* represent the average boxer in terms of the percentage of the breed they make up, I'd think, at least around here).  Most of these dogs don't have the proper amount of drive to work, IMO.  I'm thinking of this average dog when I ask if they shouldn't be a little "higher than average," and I can't imagine that a dog like that could work, and I realize we are talking about two different things here.  I really haven't been around very many well-bred pets whose breeder would have had temperament in mind.

Oh - the point here being that I get what you are saying.   :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 09:22:39 AM by blynn03 »
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Re: European Boxers -- Conformation or Schutzhund lines?
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2009, 09:03:04 AM »
It's also important to me that the dog is smart and trainable, as I want to compete in Obedience and Agility as well as form a deep bond with her. 

My recommendation would be to look for a breeder who is involved in performance events with their dogs, or one whose dogs are competing in performance events (even if the breeder herself is not involved). I think that way you have your best shot of getting what you want. I would also want one who was breeding for correct structure - because without correct structure you are not going to have much success.  These breeders are going to be breeding for working capability, among other things.

It doesn't necessarily have to be schutzhund - there are a number of breeders who are competing in obedience, agility and/or tracking.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 09:05:38 AM by RocketBoxer »
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Re: European Boxers -- Conformation or Schutzhund lines?
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2009, 09:26:52 AM »
That is the thing, you are comparing apples to oranges... They are both fruit, but very different fruit.....  ;)


I know from my experience with the Boxers I have raised from show lines, that they are VERY different from my original two Boxers.  Aggie especially, she is TOTALLY different from ALL of the Boxers I have raised... not to digress....
Sure Cass was great at obedience, but his pack drive is so high, that his seperation anxiety was prohibitive for me.  I couldn't walk away at a show to get my numbers without him whining like I had abandoned him...  He destroys my house and every crate I have ever bought for him.  The plastic crates are like nothing, because he knocks the doors right off.  I am trying to get George to make me one out of re-bar for him, but nothing has come of it yet  ::)! ANYHOW, CGC was out for him because of it, and obedience was difficult because of it. With Penny's litter, because I knew that that was behind Penny somewhere, I looked for a temperment that was more even, that is when I thought of Gio and contacted Alisha.  I had heard so much about him, and loved his first litter (even though they were young)..... Hopefully, that pays off for us, and with the Pat testing, hopefully we can pick that out easily!!!!!! 

I digressed anyhow, sorry...  I think going with a performance breeder (as Kerri said) is your best bet.  There are several to choose from,  with many different "styles" of Boxers.... so you should have  a good start at finding one!
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Re: European Boxers -- Conformation or Schutzhund lines?
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2009, 10:50:26 AM »
I guess when I keep thinking of a "pet" - I'm thinking of the average boxer around here, which is NOT well-bred  (unfortunately these dogs *do* represent the average boxer in terms of the percentage of the breed they make up, I'd think, at least around here).  Most of these dogs don't have the proper amount of drive to work, IMO.  I'm thinking of this average dog when I ask if they shouldn't be a little "higher than average," and I can't imagine that a dog like that could work, and I realize we are talking about two different things here.  I really haven't been around very many well-bred pets whose breeder would have had temperament in mind.

Oh - the point here being that I get what you are saying.   :thumbsup:

Well, we can't blame the responsible breeding American public for that, and that's a huge point of contention that I have with many Europeans--they like to take their well bred dogs and compare them against our BYB dogs. Hardly fair. (Note that I don't think *you* are--I mean this in a general sense.)

Funny aside--I'd said in the past that Mia's temperament is a bit softer than I would like (because Nedra was harder and I'd been used to working with that), but my opinion on this was changed more than once over the course of the last few years.

The first happened a few years ago. I took her through the ATTS test and didn't expect her to react much at the threatening stranger. I wasn't sure how she'd react, but I knew that she was at least solid tempered enough not to back down or bolt. I guess I figured that she'd just stand there not really knowing what to do, but she didn't. The guy came at us, yelling and screaming and hitting the ground with a stick. All of a sudden, her ridge went up and she was at the end of the lead barking at him.

The second happened a few months ago. Shortly after I started training at the new club, I got curious to see what she would do with a tug. I walked outside with a tug and tried her on it by first placing her in a sit stay, walking a few feet away, and then releasing her by telling her to, "Get it". I was shocked to see that she hit the tug like a ton of bricks and *did not* let go until I told her to "drop it". I was shocked at the amount of force she was able to put behind yanking on it--I could hardly keep standing. All from that little 48lb, compact little bitch.

Here, I was to blame--I'd underestimated her, but she could certainly do the job if she needed to. To observe her in the home, she's gentle, and sweet, and silly and will let my daughter do anything to her--she and my daughter are best friends. The benefit that she had over Nedra was that Nedra was (and still is at times) a PITA. She's stubborn and bull headed and has challenged me since the day we got her. Mia did not, and has been very easy to live with. Her temperament is wonderful, and what I'll be glad to have in any of my dogs in the future, and certainly proves that these types of temperaments are not particular to Continental dogs. (In fact, I'll argue that it is better because I can do without the stubbornness.)
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