Author Topic: Boxer Drive  (Read 9571 times)

BurningRiver

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Boxer Drive
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2009, 06:21:28 AM »
Quote from: alncris
The argument with regard to what drive is or is not was discussed in another post as I recall and I don't think it was any better clarified than we can do here.

I did want to touch on something here though as I've seen it repeatedly noted in this thread. I'd argue that "high drive" (and I have interpreted this to mean high drives all around - keep in mind there are four main categories when discussing drive) is not appropriate in any dog working in protection. We've had the previous discussion regarding sharpness, and at the time, I wasn't using my words correctly enough to state it as simply as this: Sharpness can be summed up pretty succinctly as a dog that retains exceedingly high drive in all four of the main categories (fight, flight, pack and prey). Obviously, with one of the drives being avoidance (flight), a dog that is high in all drives would be an extremely poor worker, and sharpness, in any case is not valued in any protection prospect. Given this, extremely high drive is not appropriate for any working breed, including GSD's, and stability in drives is valued above all else.
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« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2009, 07:50:24 AM »
Quote
you've not given us any information on your dogs, your experience, lines, etc.  Until you're willing to do that, we have nothing by which to put your thoughts into context, and there seems to be little value to continuing these discussions.

I read & skimmed this thread yesterday, but I finally gave it some serious attention this morning, and I must agree!
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alncris

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« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2009, 08:40:37 AM »
Quote
you've not given us any information on your dogs, your experience, lines, etc.  Until you're willing to do that, we have nothing by which to put your thoughts into context, and there seems to be little value to continuing these discussions.

I read & skimmed this thread yesterday, but I finally gave it some serious attention this morning, and I must agree!

I am irrevelant to the question at hand.

How does one determine in general any dogs capacity for work. Since this is a boxer  specific site, I would like to know how breeders maintain this charateristic alive in the breed.
Do breeders of quality US boxers figure this into the equation?
or is just expected that the trait is passed along by luck.
UK and Continental boxer breeders often have working titles. I know there is controversy there as well since some are accused of "buying" their IPO's or whatever.
We have beautiful dogs stateside, but even our top champs rarely work them. I am sure some have the correct temperament. But that to me does not show a direct effort on part of breeders to breed for it.
This not only applies to boxers, but most US breeders.
To me it is an important trait and important consideration if I were to purchase a US dog.
Ofcourse I question the need for it anymore in todays society. But nonetheless if we are to remain true to the boxer, we must demand this from breeders.
I didn't mean to upset people, but instead illicit knowledgeable responses and provoke thought and concern.
It is obvious we all love this breed, and I remind everyone that we are playing for the same team.
Since my questions and opinion are controversial and hurtful to some I will desist posting anymore on this topic and leave it for you,collectively, to think about this.
I am not all knowing, or a US boxer hater, having owned many great US boxers. However observations I have made have been confirmed by quite a few people.
The boxer abroad is considered the joke of the working class by some serious persons in the dog world and it offends me.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 08:47:05 AM by alncris »
The Boxer is the soul of fidelity, bravery, and honesty. The worst faults of character a Boxer can show are viciousness, treachery, unreliability, lack of temperament and cowardice.- Frau Stockmann

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« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2009, 08:45:10 AM »
Or was this just "being a male" and "feeling your oats"? One of my North American bred bitches snapped at me a couple of times when she was testing the waters during her adolescent years. . . . Also, I recall a couple of my childhood dogs doing this during their adolescent years, a couple GSD's and a Dobe. Really, I don't know that this is something that is particular to Continental boxers

Yes, maybe His age and feeling his oats may have something to do with it , but by that age is when I really noticed that things were getting out of hand , probably had been earlier but I did not recognize it. I had another male also at the time and they were nothing alike . By that age he did not really seem to have an off switch . His protection , and prey drive really kicked up a notch , he was also not backing down from things , and just getting harder to keep in control .
Through training I learned how to work with him and was able to get him to turn off when needed .
When I add my experiences with him and then what happened with some of his littermates is how I base my opinion of some doge with a higher drive .
And no I do not think this is something particular to continental boxers .
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« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2009, 09:21:44 AM »
I'm deleting/editing some posts which are crossing the line into personal issues and member moderation.  This is a public forum and so anyone is free to post to threads and express their opinions, so long as they follow the rules.  As well, it is up to the administrators to decide if a post is inappropriate; if someone has an issue with a post, there is a "report" function that will send a message to the administrators so that they can evaluate it.

Quote
The boxer abroad is considered the joke of the working class by some serious persons in the dog world and it offends me.

Then you should be having this discussion with those persons, rather than with people here who believe and have seen that Boxers are quite capable of performing a variety of tasks, given the desire of their owners, as was the intention of the breed's developers.

Quote
I am irrevelant to the question at hand.

Untrue.  One cannot have a meaningful discussion without some context.  I can discuss drive with Jess, or Renee, for example, because I know their backgrounds and that they've done various forms of training and work with their dogs.  We may disagree on some things, but it's easier to come to an understanding about our different points of view because we are not hiding anything from each other.

On a more paranoid note, for all we know you're a rabid animal rights activist searching for ammunition to support a ban on the breeding of Boxers.  (That's really not a leap; something very similar happened in the UK with the "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" program.)  

Besides which, frankly it's just rude not to give an introduction when joining a public forum, especially when one has been asked to do so for several months.
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BurningRiver

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« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2009, 10:20:32 AM »
And for that matter, you may be one who tries to sound like you know what you're talking about with no demonstrated experience to back it up. We'd like to think that this isn't the case, however, without much to go by, it's easy to have our doubts.

Further, I've had quite a bit of correspondence from the other side of the pond, both in working lines and out of them, and none of these people have considered American boxers to be the "joke" that you claim. I'll also argue that the majority of dogs coming out of the UK do not have various working titles. . . In fact, I've seen very few, so I'm not really sure of what you're getting at there. These statements make it seem as if you're trying to do nothing here but stir the proverbial pot.

I've more than answered your questions regarding how I'm measuring proper temperament in my dogs. The least you can do is have the common courtesy to do the same for us.
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alncris

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« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2009, 11:18:32 AM »
Burning river re-read my post. I never said that the US boxer is the joke of the working class. I was repeating a sentiment in the working dog community and it was the THE boxer is the joke. That means all boxers.

Jen, so if I give you my bio you will take it at face value and it will be proof positive that I am not a rabid animal activist...lol

Bad logic...
If you believe that I have a bridge I want to sell you.
I have heard it all now.
The proof is in the pudding.

This is exactly the reason I don't give my information, because people can't handle the truth of the condition of our dogs in the US.
It would detract from the focus of the matter and zero in on picking me apart.
The reaction of many here speaks for itself.

I have a bite sleeve I am willing to loan so that you can evaluate your own dog that I will send postage paid both ways so that you can see what your dogs are made of. No need to report to me or anyone what happens in the privacy of your backyard.
I could care less about the personal agendas of persons. I care about the breed and its betterment.
The Boxer is the soul of fidelity, bravery, and honesty. The worst faults of character a Boxer can show are viciousness, treachery, unreliability, lack of temperament and cowardice.- Frau Stockmann

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« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2009, 11:22:02 AM »
alncris-Are you a breeder?
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« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2009, 11:36:38 AM »
...because people can't handle the truth of the condition of our dogs in the US.

I don't disagree that there is a difference in the drive levels between NA and Continental boxers...not at all.  I think the biggest disagreement in this thread between almost all parties involved is not whether or not there is a difference, but what the correct boxer temperment should be.

So my question is....which type of drive is it that NA dogs are lacking?  This is a sincere question....as the answer differs depending upon who it comes from.

My first guess that it's not a LACK but possibly an EXCESS of one type of drive (compared to their Continental counterparts, not to other breeds).
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 11:40:09 AM by blynn03 »
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« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2009, 11:41:41 AM »
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Jen, so if I give you my bio you will take it at face value and it will be proof positive that I am not a rabid animal activist...lol

No, but it would at least be an act of good faith.

Quote
This is exactly the reason I don't give my information, because people can't handle the truth of the condition of our dogs in the US.

Not at all.  We disagree with your assessment - "truth" is subjective in this case - and without any information to help us understand your perspective, we have no reason to give your views much credence, especially compared to the vast amount of experience and knowledge available here from those who we know have trained, worked, bred, and lived with Boxers of various bloodlines for many years.  

Quote
It would detract from the focus of the matter and zero in on picking me apart.
The reaction of many here speaks for itself.

Well, no - it should be a different thread entirely, really, in the "Introductions" section, so wouldn't have any bearing on this discussion except to give some context and weight (or not) to your opinions.

Quote
I could care less about the personal agendas of persons. I care about the breed and its betterment.

One would think, then, that you would be willing to open and honest discussion, rather than simply making proclamations and demanding responses from behind a wall of secrecy.
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« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2009, 12:01:39 PM »
Tell me what your experiences are with working dogs and drives.

You made this request of us - why is it now improper that we make the same request of you? You've only said your dogs "aren't the best." - a far cry from sharing experiences.

If all you want to offer is strong opinions with nothing to back it up, why not write a blog, where the point is to speak to an audience, rather than have a conversation?
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« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2009, 12:28:34 PM »
I was trying to stay away from this thread - because I didn't want to post anything until alncris posts an introduction.........but I did want to say this......

Firstly, I am not saying that US boxers have the same drive as Euro-boxers. I have never met a full-blooded Euro-boxer, so I can't say. I own a half-Euro/half-US boxer and I see some temperament differences with my girls (but nothing huge) but that is the limit of my experience, and I grew up in South Africa with a lot of different boxers - mostly who had their roots back to UK and Euro lines.

This past weekend I was at a show and I had the priviledge of watching a beautiful obedience boxer (conformation titled too). Everytime I see his handler and him in the ring I am inspired because they are just amazing to watch. This team was competing in the large, VERY competitive Open B class, amongst a lot of OTCH handlers. Both days they placed in the class (a 2nd place and a 4th place).

I know that if I owned this dog, he would not work for me the same way. Simply because I don't have the same handler skills.......maybe one day?

So, I ask myself - isn't part of our problem that a lot of us here in the US simply don't know how to properly train our dogs? Either people aren't interested or are just learning?

When I look around at the dogs some of my friends own I see some boxers who probably wouldn't be interested in doing much of anything, but I do also see boxers who I think would make incredible performance dogs in the right hands.

My 2 cents worth.....

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« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2009, 12:33:40 PM »
Alncris, this isn't a poker game.  There's really no need to play your cards so close to the vest.  You seem to be intelligent, well spoken, and articulate.  So why dance around the numerous requests to give your information?  I can almost assure you that they were made in an effort to flesh out some context in the minds of respondents regarding you, being the individual they were talking with.  And even so, judgments about your introduction or lack thereof aside, if you had just kept to posing the question then you wouldn't perhaps have gotten some of the responses that you did.  But when you rebut with your own views it prompts your audience to consider where these views are coming from.  I just read this entire thread, and I assure you I have no dog in this hunt, as I'm not a breeder or a trainer.  But, IMO, no one is going to take your crendentials/story and use it as fodder for the shredder.  We all just like to have some idea of who we are talking to.  :thumbsup:

BurningRiver

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« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2009, 01:03:00 PM »
Right, so apparently, you do have something to hide, as if you were nearly as accomplished as you allude to, you'd have no issues in being completely open about your identity. Instead, you choose to hide your identity to us, which leaves us to nothing more than our assumptions about your experience. Fine. I have my assumptions. And I'll share them.

Apparently you feel that bite work is *the* definition of a good working dog, which is the view usually held by novices. In fact, bark and hold is much more valued in well run programs -- the *very last* resort for the dog should be to resort to biting.

Second, most I've spoken with have said that they simply choose to stick with GSD's because 1) they know the lines, and 2) while a boxer might be more reliable on task and overall a better worker with much more speed, precision and accuracy, they're stubborn so they take longer to train and 3) GSD's are better with repetition.

Third, I know exactly how my bitches are on the sleeve. One is a piano biter, another has a soft mouth, and oddly enough, the third and sharp tempered one can hold like you wouldn't believe.

So there's my assumption regarding your experience with working dogs (of any breed). If you'd like to change that perception, anti up and spill the details about your identity, Nimmerland.

Frankly, my one last assumption is that you are nothing more than a troll looking for a place to play. Have fun.
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blynn03

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« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2009, 02:20:47 PM »
The question I asked wasn't about you...it was about boxers.  I was interested in hearing from anyone what they think the answer is...

Quote
So my question is....which type of drive is it that NA dogs are lacking?  This is a sincere question....as the answer differs depending upon who it comes from.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 02:22:50 PM by blynn03 »
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