Author Topic: Ok I am confused  (Read 1440 times)

BainGhana

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Ok I am confused
« on: September 24, 2008, 12:49:49 AM »
I tried cooking for harley...and giving him all natural foods especially when they had the major pet food recall last year...But My vet said this is bad and that alot of people food is toxic for boxers... :sick2:Is This true? She also said never to give them bones because they splinter and get stuck in their intestines???But I see alot of people talking about BONES!!!!!!!!!  :eek:No wonder harley gets mad at me when I make ribs and he dont get the bones :wall:
Also I hear alot about Fish??? for boxers???? what are the benefits? Boy do I have alot to learn :mad:

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BoxerWB

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Re: Ok I am confused
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2008, 08:43:55 AM »
Bain - The bones these people are speaking of are RAW... cooked bones are harmful and can splinter, so you shouldn't be giving him rib bones when you've cooked them.  Also, most of the bones used are not weight-bearing (i.e. leg) bones... bones from places like the neck or back are much softer.

Some foods that we eat can be harmful, but plenty are perfectly appropriate.  Afterall, what is dog food made of - meats, grains, some veggies?  All stuff you would include in homecooking.

A lot of vets will tell you that homecooking is bad and RAW feeding is dangerous - but that doesn't make them right  ;)  Most vet schools only require 1 semester on nutrition for *all* small animals, so unless your vet goes out of their way to educate themselves (and not at conferences sponsored by pet foods), they tend to be pro-kibble and anti-anything else.
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RocketBoxer

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Re: Ok I am confused
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2008, 08:49:15 AM »
I would say that the wrong type of food is not good for dogs so before you embark on cooking or feeding raw it is very important to have done some research and know what they need and don't need. But also bear in mind that most vets are not experts on nutrition and will fall back on the "if you aren't feeding kibble there is a problem".

The issue with bones is that cooked bones are VERY bad and could well splinter, but RAW bones will not. So when we talk about bones we are actually referring to raw bones - never cooked. So before you cook those ribs next time cut a few off for Harley and see how he likes them.
Even if you are feeding him kibble it could be beneficial to give him a bone once or twice a week - for one it should help keep his teeth clean and I am sure he will love you for it.

Fish is also very good for them.

My recommendation - since it seems like you are currently feeding kibble - is to make sure you are feeding a good quality kibble (maybe try a grain free variety) and then start adding in things like sardines or mackeral, eggs (raw or lightly scrambled), cottage cheese, green tripe - all things that are very healthy, and then feed a nice meaty bone once or twice a week.

A very good book to read is Raw Dog Food - Make it Easy for You and Your Dog by Carina Beth McDonald.


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BainGhana

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Re: Ok I am confused
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2008, 09:30:46 AM »
Thanks for the responses...
I guess I should clarify what I feed him
He basically eats alot of Rice...carrots...peas...eggs...cheese...barley...grain...chicken...and so on...I do mix kibble with this but mostly he eats real food too...
The kibble I feed is all natural...Natural balance Sweet Potato and Duck
I just never heard of fish...so thank you for that
and as far as bones go...raw or cooked I think I will stay away from those I read some complete horror stories about Boxers choking on them,,,I would just die if something happened to my baby.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 09:34:54 AM by BainGhana »

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blynn03

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Re: Ok I am confused
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2008, 09:35:53 AM »
Well...sounds like his diet is a little heavy in grains and veggies.  Dogs don't really need a large percentage of grains (rice, barley, grains)...their bodies aren't really able to digest them very well.  You don't often see wild dogs out grazing in the fields....lol.  Veggies are okay, but in moderation.  What is the proportion of chicken you feed compared with all the rest of the things you mention?

Also, what kind of kibble do you feed?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 11:49:11 AM by blynn03 »
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blynn03

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Re: Ok I am confused
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2008, 09:38:39 AM »
Oh yeah...forgot to mention.  A true raw diet (which isn't what you're feeding, I know) consists largely of RMBs (raw meaty bones)....so I'm absolutely not telling you what to do here, but I just wanted to say that you may want to do a little more research about the kind of bones we're talking about before you discount them entirely.

A lot of people who feed raw here feed chicken wings, necks and backs.  The bones in these parts are very malleable and easy to chew/swallow.  Also, I give my dogs bones for recreation....they are pieces of cow femur, which are absolutely too large for them to swallow.  But they make GREAT chew toys.
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BoxerWB

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Re: Ok I am confused
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2008, 09:58:12 AM »
While choking is possible with bones in general, the majority of bones in a raw diet aren't likely to be a problem.  When you say "hearing stories about boxers choking on bones" - I'd wager none of them are the bones you'd use in raw.  Maybe bones used for recreation, or cooked bones.  We have a bunch of folks here feeding raw and I can only remember one choking story (which resolved happily).
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RocketBoxer

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Re: Ok I am confused
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2008, 11:07:16 AM »
and as far as bones go...raw or cooked I think I will stay away from those I read some complete horror stories about Boxers choking on them,,,I would just die if something happened to my baby.

As far as choking goes, just pick a BIG bone that is so big that they can't swallow it whole and there won't be a problem. For example, if you were to give your dog a beef rib, there is no way that they can choke on that - compared to a turkey neck, which if they try and swallow whole could be a problem (not an issue though if one were to cut it up into several pieces).

How much kibble are you feeding - just wondering where the calcium is coming from if you aren't feeding bones (I am assuming when you say chicken that you mean just the meat)? I would also suggest scrapping most of the rice and other grains and veggies and feeding more meats (even if just ground meat - beef/turkey/chicken)/fish/tripe etc.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 11:10:13 AM by RocketBoxer »
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Boxermom,K

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Re: Ok I am confused
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2008, 11:40:26 AM »
If you aren't feeding bones and the kibble is less than 60% of the diet than you need to be supplementing with bone meal powder (you can get it at most health food stores) otherwise your pup will be lacking in calcium.

If you are concerned about feeding bones you can grind them. I do that quite a bit myself as I am concerned about my dogs choking, but then Laila had stomach surgery a couple of years ago and things don't pass through as well as they normally would. Never feed cooked bones, or bones that are old and dry- those do splinter. For recreational chewing I give my dogs large knuckle bones and partial leg bones.

I would not add too much grain. If you feel your dog will benefit from it I would stick with a cooked oatmeal (steel cut- not processed). Grains aren't really needed in a dog's diet, although some dogs like them. My girl Laila loves a small dish of warm cooked oatmeal with a drop of honey for a treat when it's cold out. Just like my skin kids do.

Remember that veggies need to be steamed before you feed them otherwise the dog's digestive system isn't able to utilize the nutrients.

Fish contains lots of omega 3 fatty acids which are important for skin and coat. Whenever we eat fish (usually salmon) my dogs each get a filet that is grilled (unseasoned for the dogs).




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Re: Ok I am confused
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2008, 07:56:28 PM »
I homecook and feed raw to my clam...they also get RMB and I grind bones to add to their raw patties.  You just need to research the diet you feed your pup.  I agree that you are feeding way to many grains to your pup.  Only one, and I were to choose it would be rice.
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BainGhana

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Re: Ok I am confused
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2008, 11:29:31 AM »
Wow Such an overwhelming response I don't know where to begin to thank all of you for your help...let me see if I can explain a little better because I got alot of questions and great suggestions about what Harley eats...
I leave kibble out for him all the time to snack on His big meals 2 times daily are usually all white meat chicken...or ground turkey...steamed carrots and rice and I also mix his kibble with that so that he does not get into the habbit of not wanting to eat his dry food at all. I do give him other grain on occassion but maybe only 1 time weekly... He also loves fruit so I give him a piece of banana or apple on occassion. Oddly enough he also has a fit whenever I am eating a cucumber and drives me batty until I let him have a piece of the skin.

Also someone asked what percentage of meat he eats I would have to say between 60-70%

Harley was a runt and was born kind of sickly he had a biopsy for cancer before he was even 2 months old and on top of all that he has a severe heart murmur :cry2: poor little guy. so he is small at 16 months only weighs 57 puppy pounds  :bigcry: I try my best to do all that I can for him and considering where he was born and how he got to me it is a miracle he survived...but thats another story. I would love to help him gain more weight but he seems very healthy now in comparrison and very active, energetic, and playful

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steph0808

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Re: Ok I am confused
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2008, 11:37:44 AM »
Harley was a runt and was born kind of sickly he had a biopsy for cancer before he was even 2 months old and on top of all that he has a severe heart murmur :cry2: poor little guy. so he is small at 16 months only weighs 57 puppy pounds  :bigcry: I try my best to do all that I can for him and considering where he was born and how he got to me it is a miracle he survived...but thats another story. I would love to help him gain more weight but he seems very healthy now in comparrison and very active, energetic, and playful

Poor Harley!  What a story!  Just wanted to comment that actually 57 pounds is a good weight for a boxer (they are a medium breed).  He looks great in the picture you have as your avatar!  My Brody is 63 pounds and could stand to lose about 5 pounds, and our Jax was only about 60 pounds all his life too.
Riley - 9/19/2008

BoxerWB

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Re: Ok I am confused
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2008, 11:37:54 AM »
My one note (since I don't homecook) is that the dog in your avatar is NOT underweight, 57lbs at 16 mos is not small, and he does not need to gain from what I can tell.  A side shot and overhead shot are the best tools to gauge weight when you can't see the dog in person, but if he needed any great amount of weight, you'd be able to see it from afar.

My guess is that you live in an area where people expect male boxers to be something crazy like 80-90lbs monsters... which is just not right.  Also remember that boxers are a lean breed - seeing the last couples ribs on them is a DESIRABLE thing, not a sign of ill-health.  Having a dog at a heavier weight (where you can't see the ribs or feel them extremely easily) is actually much less healthy for them then keeping them a little skinny.

My male has a narrow build, 26 mos old, 25" tall and he's just barely at 50lbs. That's completely correct and healthy for him.
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Carolyn

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Re: Ok I am confused
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2008, 11:42:47 AM »
I would strongly suggest getting that book my Corina McDonald mentioned earlier, even if you are not feeding raw it is a primer on how to do the nutritional balance in a diet, it also isnt preachy, very cut and dried with good examples, about 50-70 pages long. Definitely worth the $$ and time to read it.

And I am very glad that you see the connection between diet and health, that is the hardest thing to get people over, got to say those advertisers are good at what they do. Anyhow, check out that book, it is a good source of information.

I used to feed my dogs raw, but have traveled too much with work this year that I felt my dog sitter would be more comfortable with feeding kibble. I switched my two to Taste of the Wild and they look the same as when I was feeding raw. So it is possible to do a good quality kibble diet.

I would also recommend stopping the free feeding, or maybe cut it back some. It has been found that dogs that free feed are more likely to have obesity problems. So maybe  just keep an eye on him. I know that if he has a heart murmur, he should not gain extra weight. My girl has Hip dysplasia and a degenerative spinal cord injury....I am a fanatic about her diet to keep her healthy and going. And at 8 yrs old, she is still launching herself off the back of my couch in the middle of a play session.

Good luck, and welcome to our little corner of the world. ;D
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blynn03

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Re: Ok I am confused
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2008, 11:46:16 AM »
Even the thicker and more muscled males that are within standard usually only weight 70-75 pounds max at maturity....and not every dog is built to be able to carry that much weight.  Some are more fine-boned than others, and they may only weigh in the 60s at full maturity.

Keep in mind that Harley isn't fully mature.....he will naturally gain weight during his second year, and maybe even his third.  I wouldn't be attempting to feed him a lot in an effort to make him gain weight...since he will naturally gain any weight he may need.  My female didn't grow much at all (maybe 1/4 an inch) between the ages of 1 and 2, but she did put on about 6-7 pounds...for a male it could be a more.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 11:51:29 AM by blynn03 »
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