Boxer Crazy

Behavior and Training => Problem Behaviors => Topic started by: gobroberts on September 28, 2011, 09:06:59 AM

Title: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: gobroberts on September 28, 2011, 09:06:59 AM
Let me start by saying I am a proponent of positive reinforcement as the primary element of training.  Stuiy is generally a good boy (15 month old rescue) and is ridiculously smart and loyal.  He has bounced around and I believe he is starting to understand this is his permanent family (FINALLY).  With all of that said, after 2 weeks and a 2 hour OB session at our house, continued issues with the cat, not getting in his crate in the morning for my fiancee, continued badgering of the 12 year old lab/chow old lady, tearing up the entire house when left to his own devices for 30 minutes in the morning while showering...I reluctantly invested in a shock collar.

Stuiy is a new man.  I am convinced that he understood the commands before.  sit, stay, lay down, down etc...  he just had too much going through his head to care about what I was trying to correct.  No amount of treats, or praise was enough.  I believe I can count on one hand the number of times I have had to "stimulate" the collar, since the collar gives off several beeps as a reminder.  He now listens, sits almost immediately, stays (even when I am out of site for a short period of time) and waits for my release most of the time from stay.  This is after two days.  From what I can gather, he also is manageable with my fiancee in the mornings while she is getting ready for work.

I was afraid that we would have to return him to the foster home as I felt I could handle a slower rising learning curve, but my fiancee had almost had it.  I am convinced at this point, that the collar, if used correctly is a valid tool in training.

I expect that the collar will be temporary, as when he has had it off while it recharges, he still listens well and he doesn't seem to relate the corrections or even the beeps to me in any way.  I am interested in your feedback.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Christina on September 28, 2011, 09:31:38 AM
When used properly, it can be a good training utensil.  A lot depends on the dog as well though. A shy, timid dog would not respond well at all, while it sounds like your boy is doing well.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: BoxerPerson on September 28, 2011, 10:06:00 AM
Not a fan but do agree that it can help with stubborn dogs.  My brother used one with his lab, and actually only had to show the remote for the dog to respond, not activating it.  I still used the positive reinforcement with mine regardless...that seems to have worked with me.  That and repetition, sometimes constant repetition for hours...but eventually they get what I want!
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Patti on September 28, 2011, 10:45:56 AM
I'm sure he is a new man. I wouldn't step out of line if I had electrical current running into my neck. Sounds like your boy needs lots of exercise. He's got some energy to burn up.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: DoubleTrouble on September 28, 2011, 11:15:32 AM
Let me start by saying I am a proponent of positive reinforcement as the primary element of training.  ...I reluctantly invested in a shock collar.

Stuiy is a new man. 
I am interested in your feedback.

No...you're probably not...
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Rubidawg on September 28, 2011, 11:23:00 AM
It sounds like typical, bratty behavior for a 15 month old pup. Something that patience, consistency and reinforcing with positive training methods would have taken care of. Two weeks of training and giving up, isn't going to help him learn. I'm not a fan of shock collars and know quite a few people who have used them. But I've found you get more "bees with honey than you do with vinegar" and from what you are describing this could all be easily corrected without going the shock collar route. Leaving him alone for 30 mins - well, what do you expect a pup to do? Chasing the cat - teach him, rather than shock him into fear. Not getting in the crate - that is something that you train and takes time.

Sorry, I think you jumped the gun with going the shock collar route and with patience, consistency, and positive reinforcement - you would have seen progress. Two weeks isn't enough time to train - especially a 15mo old pup that has "lost his marbles" (lol) anyway. It's a fun age, but you can't expect them to learn overnight.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: BoxerPerson on September 28, 2011, 11:41:00 AM
Exactly, Patti & Dawn, exactly!!!
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: WildBeanerz on September 28, 2011, 02:28:59 PM
I have to agree with the general opinion here. I don't support using a shock collar. I think that if you have a dog you should have the time and energy to put into proper training. Proper training IMO is positive reinforcement.

Sorry...I know how frustrated you are with him but I got my girl in January at 15 months after having spent @20 hrs per day in her crate at her previous home she had no idea what to do in a house. I had her practically glued to my body for at least 2 months to prevent accidents, getting in trash and on counters, etc etc. She is now... 8 months later she is a doll. She has learned sit, stay (mostly), down, crawl, and her newest is roll over. It just takes time and patience. I was honestly at the point of tears wondering why on earth had I brought such a horrible dog into my home within just a few days of bringing her home but OMG I wouldnt' give her up for the world now.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: BranwenBoxers on September 28, 2011, 07:02:04 PM
While I am not a fan of shock collars , I do believe they have there place as a training tool .  Like if your dog likes to chase cars , tractors , horses ect .  But for the normal this like sit , laydown , stay going in the kennel , then no I don't think the shock collar is a good idea only because at some point your dog will understand that the collar is off or not working and they may choose to not listen to you .   

Do you feed your dog in the kennel ?  If not then that would be a good time to teach your pup that going in the kennel is FUN FUN FUN , and when they go in they may get something good to eat or chew .   When I had my last litter , and I had 3 pups still living with us .  They would fly to the kennel when I said " kennel" lol because they knew that I was going to give them something good .   

I also would recemend putting your boy in the kennel when you cannot watch him 100% of the time , or tie him to you so he can't make a mess .    You need to treat him as if he was an 8 week old pup , start from scratch .  Yes it will take time , but I bet in no time he will start to listen .   

Millie my 3 year old bitch takes for ever to learn any new tricks , even now she will look at me like I grew another head  ::) .  Not that she does not understand what I am asking ( tricks that she already knows )  , but she is trying to see if I really mean it .   


Sometimes training takes time  ,  but once they figure out what you want they will be more then happy to do what you ask  , well most of the time lol . 
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Theresa on September 28, 2011, 09:08:21 PM
I have to say that I have a shock collar for Peanut. But it's for the invisible fence WHICH is used in combination with the regular fence. I used it because Peanut jumped over the fence to chase horses and ATVs.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Patti on September 28, 2011, 09:19:30 PM
Totally different, T. It's for her safety, not as a training tool when other options are still open.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: gobroberts on September 29, 2011, 09:11:00 AM
OK, I wasn't looking for validation, just your thoughts and I appreciate even those with a holier than thou attitude.  Stuiy is a rescue, that was on the verge of having to go back into "rotation", not because I couldn't handle a longer training period, but because my fiancee was on edge and uncomfortable with him alone.  Easy choice for me, shorten his training timeline, or put him back in a situation where he was bouncing from place to place again.

Let me be clear, Stuiy has never been "stimulated" by the collar as a general training tool to "sit" and "stay" as it might have come across in my post.  The only time he has "felt" the collar is out side without a leash as a means to keep him from tearing off into a crowded street OR when he is absolutely running away from my fiancee because he knows it is "crate" time in the morning.  The beep on the collar is the only thing that has been used to re-direct his attention and has made him a different, happier part of a much happier household.

After being chained outside for days at a time, suffering a sunburn that caused a scar down his back about 18 inches long, absolutely starved for both food and attention with his original owner, then being part of a 5 dog foster home and NEVER being inquired about, I can assure you that his permanent family is a MUCH better situation and short term use of the collar to ensure our collective integration is hard for both of us, but a needed effort.  Thanks for your continued comments!
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: DoubleTrouble on September 29, 2011, 09:21:24 AM
OK, I wasn't looking for validation, just your thoughts and I appreciate even those with a holier than thou attitude. 

 ::)
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Rubidawg on September 29, 2011, 09:26:37 AM
Well you got our thoughts....not our validation. And no one has come in here with a "hollier than thou" attitude. You just don't like our "thoughts," so you are getting defensive. We can all understand and sympathise with what your boy has been through. There are SEVERAL members on here that are very passionate and are volunteers for boxer rescue. They've seen it all, and we've all heard the stories.

Bottomline, two weeks isn't enough time to get down any training, especially for a 15mo old boxer. Heck, he's not even adjusted to a new home yet - that can take MONTHS! And you're giving him barely two weeks?

And to give him 2 weeks and say he was going to go back into "rotation" isn't fair....considering what he's been through, you would think you would allow him more time than that. Heck, I'd give him the world considering all he's been through...and first I'd start with a bit more patience.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Patti on September 29, 2011, 09:45:26 AM
Honestly? Holier than thou? Pffft. I was being nice. I said it sounds like your boy needs exercise. I could have said "you seem lazy and like to take the easy way out of training. How could you deliberately hurt a dog that has already suffered so much in the past?" THAT, my dear, would have been holier than thou. But it's not what I said and it's not necessarily how I feel.

If you come onto a forum and ask for feedback you're gonna get it whether you like it or not. Your explaination on how you're using the collar could have helped in the first post as well ;)
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: BoxerPerson on September 29, 2011, 09:59:38 AM
WOW...and this time I didn't have to say a word...thanks Deb, Dawn & Patti.  I always have "thoughts" and usually speak my mind about them, but I decided to refrain from it this time.  I guess I didn't have to say a thing.

I so agree that the amount of time you gave poor Stuiy is far short of what is needed!  My last rescue, Snookie, was abusing my last nerve with her potty accidents in her crate & in the house...she lived in a crate and apparently no one took the time to work with her!

I really was thinking I was not the appropriate home for her when suddenly it clicked.  I worked with her daily, and without punishment of any kind, just rewards...she has been a family member for almost 6 months, is 13 months old and...I STILL DON'T TRUST HER AND STILL WORK WITH HER! 2 weeks is not even getting over the honeymoon of being in your home.  Toss the collar, get up and work with him...you may be totally amazed! If your fiance can't handle him, then could it be she is not the right person?  What will she do with a crying fussy baby?
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Missy/Precious mom on September 29, 2011, 10:24:49 AM
The only time I believe in shock collars is with an invisible fence, only to keep them safe.  If feel you are not getting anywhere with training then a trainer is the answer.  A good trainer knows how to get through to a dog.  I could never shock a dog especially a rescue that has already known too much abuse.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: aquagirl900 on September 29, 2011, 11:36:29 AM
I've had to use a shock collar on Bo once or twice three years ago.  We had newborn kittens and he just wanted to chase and chase them.  We had to shock him 2 or 3 times and now he cuddles with them, no chasing at all.  We decided to do this for the safety of our 1/2 pound kittens...and we only had to use the 1st shock level.  My husband put the collar on himself first too. 
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: whitepupzoe on September 29, 2011, 11:39:55 AM
Well you got our thoughts....not our validation. And no one has come in here with a "hollier than thou" attitude. You just don't like our "thoughts," so you are getting defensive. We can all understand and sympathise with what your boy has been through. There are SEVERAL members on here that are very passionate and are volunteers for boxer rescue. They've seen it all, and we've all heard the stories.

Bottomline, two weeks isn't enough time to get down any training, especially for a 15mo old boxer. Heck, he's not even adjusted to a new home yet - that can take MONTHS! And you're giving him barely two weeks?

And to give him 2 weeks and say he was going to go back into "rotation" isn't fair....considering what he's been through, you would think you would allow him more time than that. Heck, I'd give him the world considering all he's been through...and first I'd start with a bit more patience.

I agree 100 million percent!  :thumbsup:

I happen to have a 20 month old boxer boy who is off the wall crazy...and as much as I'd like to strangle him sometimes I would never ever put a shock collar on him. I know he has a ton of energy...and to be honest if he's bouncing off the walls, most of the time it's my fault because he hasn't been exercised enough. I would have invested in a good trainer if I were you instead of a shock collar. Just my opinion.

I also have a rescue who came from a bad situation and 2 weeks is no where near enough time for them to adjust. It takes at least 6 wks for them to come out of their shell and show their true personality. And during that adjustment period...the last thing I would want to do is use a shock collar on an already traumatized dog.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: rmkoruga on September 29, 2011, 11:55:42 AM
I have no experience in shock collars because it is something I would never use. The only advice I can offer for an off the wall boxer puppy (which most are) is run there little buts off! When Leroy was a puppy he was horrible if I did not run him enough. It is amazing how much better they listen when they have gotten rid of all that crazy energy.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Christina on September 29, 2011, 05:01:51 PM
I have to say that I have a shock collar for Peanut. But it's for the invisible fence WHICH is used in combination with the regular fence. I used it because Peanut jumped over the fence to chase horses and ATVs.

This is why I had one for Star, used it once to stop him from chasing cars. I don't like them, and why I have no clue where his is now.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Vintage Boxers on September 29, 2011, 08:56:28 PM
I won't comment on timeline, but i will say this SHOCK COLLARS are not the worst training tool known to man, nor are prong collars.

What is worse is the people who IMPROPERLY use them. I have choke chains, prong collars, and shock collars. Used when needed. If this keeps your DOG and YOU from getting hurt and they are used correctly i don't know why undies are in a bunch.


I am sorry but you could positive reinforce loki until you were blue in the face, the dog would flip you off if he could. If he doesn't want to do it, he won't!

To each their own.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Patti on September 30, 2011, 07:56:58 AM
i don't know why undies are in a bunch.

Like you said, to each their own.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: DoubleTrouble on September 30, 2011, 10:26:55 AM
but i will say this SHOCK COLLARS are not the worst training tool known to man, .

I don't know why undies are in a bunch.


Wow...Just Wow!! :thumbsdown:
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Bruins_Boxer on September 30, 2011, 10:43:23 AM
The only experience I have with shock collars is from a friend who had the electric fence with shock collar . Their dog kept getting out of the electric fence so they felt they had no other option but to add the shock if the dog crossed the boundary line.

They also used a word ( watch out) when the electric fence guy came out to help train their dog . So whenever the dog got close to the fence line they would say watch out and then the dog got zapped . the dog learned very quickly to avoid the fence line .

While over visiting once I was playing with the dog and I told one of my kids to watch out ( don't remember why) the dog got scared at the sound of the words watch out and ran to lie on his bed .
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: rmkoruga on September 30, 2011, 11:19:21 AM
 
Quote
While over visiting once I was playing with the dog and I told one of my kids to watch out ( don't remember why) the dog got scared at the sound of the words watch out and ran to lie on his bed .



this makes me feel sad.... :no:
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: BoxerPerson on September 30, 2011, 04:03:12 PM
I think the collar used for the invisible fence is different than the one that is used with a remote to "correct" behavior...I saw a min pin with a SHOCK collar on at the campground...it was being used to correct the dog because she would run to the end of their site and bark at passing people.  At any rate this dog came running out while I was walking Phoebe and all of the sudden she literally flipped in the air yelping...I thought she was stung by a bee.  I was shocked to learn that this painful thing was administered by the owner...


Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: DoubleTrouble on September 30, 2011, 05:47:05 PM
At any rate this dog came running out while I was walking Phoebe and all of the sudden she literally flipped in the air yelping...I thought she was stung by a bee.  I was shocked to learn that this painful thing was administered by the owner...


OMG.... :brood: :wall:
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Theresa on September 30, 2011, 07:01:33 PM
I don't know how high the other owners have the invisible fence collars set but they are adjustable. Pnut's is set to like 4 (of  10) and it feels a bit like I static electricity shock (I tested it on me before I put it on her).
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: BoxerPerson on September 30, 2011, 08:40:12 PM
The collar on the min pin was not for boundaries, it was literally for shock purposes! I ran to help the pup and saw the owner with the remote in his hand...it didn't click at first cuz I told him I thought his dog was stung, and then he held the remote out for me to see and told me her shocked her!  :o  I couldn't believe someone could/would do that to a small dog like that! :furious3:
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Vintage Boxers on October 05, 2011, 02:05:43 PM
Claire that was improperly used, and the setting for that dog were not correct.

A properly used shock collar is a tool, an extension of the handler. It is to be used in conjunction with commands. Not just for the sole purpose of shocking a dog.

I have used it for training and my dogs are not less happy nor are they scared.

Like i said, to each person their own beliefs but when ANY tool in incorrectly applied it can be painful and do the exact opposite of it's intended purpose.


S
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Vintage Boxers on October 05, 2011, 02:19:21 PM
http://www.gundogsonline.com/Article/electronic-collar-training-Page1.htm

i liked this article when i RESEARCHED using the collar.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: BoxerPerson on October 05, 2011, 03:03:50 PM
Oh I am sure it was not used correctly...and I do believe that if used correctly it can be a useful tool, but I have never had a dog that I had to use one on.  Maybe if I had, I would feel differently.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Soleil on October 05, 2011, 03:58:22 PM
but i will say this SHOCK COLLARS are not the worst training tool known to man, .

I don't know why undies are in a bunch.


Wow...Just Wow!! :thumbsdown:

agreed.. as long as they are used correctly, under the the right circumstance. 

I guess I won't be posting any SchH training videos once "the collar" is introduced.   ::)
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Vintage Boxers on October 05, 2011, 06:58:32 PM
Kat, you can always share with me :)

it's the same thing as the electric fence people use, when you just let the dog "figure out" it's barriers, instead of teaching recall. A tool not used correctly. But as long as the dog isn't abused I can only share opinion, they still have the right to do it.


I know nobody was saying he didn't have the right, it was more of a general point!
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Samsons Mom on October 05, 2011, 10:23:24 PM
Sounds like your pup needs a daily walk, and some mental stimulation. Not a shock collar  :thumbsdown:

Quote
OK, I wasn't looking for validation, just your thoughts and I appreciate even those with a holier than thou attitude.  Stuiy is a rescue, that was on the verge of having to go back into "rotation", not because I couldn't handle a longer training period, but because my fiancee was on edge and uncomfortable with him alone.  Easy choice for me, shorten his training timeline, or put him back in a situation where he was bouncing from place to place again.

Why did you adopt a Boxer if your fiancee was uncomfortable with him....  ???
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Newcastle on October 06, 2011, 08:56:59 AM
Quote
I won't comment on timeline, but i will say this SHOCK COLLARS are not the worst training tool known to man,


Nor are they the best.

Quote
What is worse is the people who IMPROPERLY use them.

Which probably applies to at least 95% of the people that use them, unfortunately.

Quote
I have choke chains, prong collars, and shock collars. Used when needed.


That's fine, for you. Many people feel those tools are never needed, and that's fine, for them. It is certainly possible to train even the most "stubborn" dogs to an exquisitely high level of reliability in any venue without using positive punishment -- just look at the work of the Baileys -- but not all trainers possess the ability (or the desire) to do so.

Quote
i don't know why undies are in a bunch.

These types of comments (as well as the eye rolls and the "holier than thou" snark, really) are not conducive to open discussion of issues and tread on the primary rule of this forum, which is to be respectful of each other.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Vintage Boxers on October 06, 2011, 01:53:02 PM
Quote
I won't comment on timeline, but i will say this SHOCK COLLARS are not the worst training tool known to man,


Nor are they the best.

Quote
What is worse is the people who IMPROPERLY use them.

Which probably applies to at least 95% of the people that use them, unfortunately.

Quote
I have choke chains, prong collars, and shock collars. Used when needed.


That's fine, for you. Many people feel those tools are never needed, and that's fine, for them. It is certainly possible to train even the most "stubborn" dogs to an exquisitely high level of reliability in any venue without using positive punishment -- just look at the work of the Baileys -- but not all trainers possess the ability (or the desire) to do so.

Quote
i don't know why undies are in a bunch.

These types of comments (as well as the eye rolls and the "holier than thou" snark, really) are not conducive to open discussion of issues and tread on the primary rule of this forum, which is to be respectful of each other.

Um, so because i choose to use other training tools, i do not possess the ability or desire to use another method? That seems just as non conducive to open discussion as not understanding why people have their undies in a bunch.

Leaving topic. But glad that some discussion was had.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Newcastle on October 06, 2011, 09:16:30 PM
Quote
Um, so because i choose to use other training tools, i do not possess the ability or desire to use another method?

Well, yes, because if you wanted to use positive-only methods you wouldn't choose to use non-positive methods, would you? I don't see how that statement of fact is not conducive to discussion -- I could see it if I only said ability, which is why I didn't only say that.  Many trainers who are completely capable of using positive-only methods in difficult cases choose not to, for a variety of reasons.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Popeyelove on May 04, 2012, 12:35:49 PM
My boxer puppy is also very rambunctious and stubborn.  It is difficult to deal with.  Just give him time to mature and mellow out, which won't happen, from what I have heard about boxers, until they are about four years old.
Title: Re: Had to try it (shock collar)
Post by: Ferrum on March 09, 2013, 09:55:20 PM
I am late to the convo but agree that shock collars are bad. It also sounds like your not taking you time with him (also agree ) it take lot of time to train any dog and if you change one small thing in the environment you may have to retrain in that area. Also I hope that all of this training is done in 15 to 20 min sessions no dog no matter how old cannot handle any more than 15 to 20 min at a time with an hour break in between that is just training 101 sorry if that is harsh