Boxer Crazy

The Breed and Breeders => The Boxer Standard => Topic started by: Bruins_Boxer on March 12, 2010, 09:29:43 AM

Title: Head difference by region
Post by: Bruins_Boxer on March 12, 2010, 09:29:43 AM
I am constantly told that Edy would show well up in New England .As she has the type of head that is liked up there . And I had also been told that Charlotte had a New England head by someone when they saw her for the first time , not knowing that is where she was from.

What is the big thing that makes a head different up in New England vs. other areas of the country?

Or what are the traits seen in heads around the different regions of the country?
Title: Re: Head difference by region
Post by: fairview Boxers on March 12, 2010, 11:13:44 AM
I know showing in Pa, you see longer muzzles and TALL Boxers, to me they look more like Danes in head.. In Oh, we see more correct heads, but shorter bodies...  I had been told when I first entered the show world that the west coast dogs are shorter backed (shorter loin officially) than most other regions of the states... The midwest supposedly is known for a slightly lower tailset, although I can't say I see that.. Maybe years ago it was, but I don't see it now! 
I think it has more to do with what bigger kennels frequent those areas... IMO
Title: Re: Head difference by region
Post by: markwantsaboxer on March 24, 2010, 03:01:55 PM
The Worldwide Boxer website notes that there is a tendency now for breeders in Europe to breed for a muzzle length that is one-quarter of overall head length, making Boxers look more like Dogue de Bourdeau (or less charitably, Boston Terriers).  That clearly goes against standard, and the website explains that breeders have misread the standard by interpreting the "one-third of head" to mean a muzzle-to-skull ratio of one to three (when it is obviously supposed to mean a one to two ration).

But I have a question about muzzle width.  The site also notes that the muzzle width on a Boxer should be two-thirds of head width, but some Boxers have a three-quarters width muzzle.

Anyone got a problem with the wider muzzle?  :barf:

Any problems associated with the wider muzzle?  :sick2:

In which region is the wider muzzle more popular? If I remember correctly, it is Europe.
Title: Re: Head difference by region
Post by: RocketBoxer on March 25, 2010, 12:53:10 PM
What is the big thing that makes a head different up in New England vs. other areas of the country?

Or what are the traits seen in heads around the different regions of the country?

Honestly, I don't think there is a head difference by region - at least there isn't down here. Maybe in the past or in an area where there is a huge kennel. If I go a dog show here, honestly there is no one specific type of head. There is LOT of variation - and if you look at the pedigrees the dogs are from all over the place.
Title: Re: Head difference by region
Post by: AnnF on March 27, 2010, 08:26:38 PM
The American breeders who are importing the Euro lines, seem to be much more aware of the problems with a shorter muzzle, and seem to be breeding here toward one that is 1/3rd which is standard in length.  Reason is that they struggle with overheating during schutzhund work, and you have to walk them (almost like a racehorse) for some time after working to cool them down.  I'm not sure why the dogs from Europe continue with the standard short muzzle.  Obviously it is a possible danger to working Boxers regarding stamina.

Ann WI
Title: Re: Head difference by region
Post by: markwantsaboxer on March 27, 2010, 09:58:10 PM
The American breeders who are importing the Euro lines, seem to be much more aware of the problems with a shorter muzzle, and seem to be breeding here toward one that is 1/3rd which is standard in length.  Reason is that they struggle with overheating during schutzhund work, and you have to walk them (almost like a racehorse) for some time after working to cool them down.  I'm not sure why the dogs from Europe continue with the standard short muzzle.  Obviously it is a possible danger to working Boxers regarding stamina.

Ann WI
So are you saying that the American breeders who import from Europe are breeding for the 1/3 muzzle to overall head ratio because the European dogs tend to be even shorter than that and consequently are prone to overheating? Or are you saying that the Euro dogs are already the proper standard, and that the standard is too short?

I find this fascinating, but I am not completely sure what you are saying.
Title: Re: Head difference by region
Post by: Newcastle on March 27, 2010, 10:36:46 PM
As a generalization, Continental muzzles are about 1/4 the length of the head, rather than the 1/3 the standard requires.  One reason I was given for this (by a breeder in Continental Europe) was that Continental breeders measure from the chin, rather than the tip of the nose (despite the standard's clear instructions to measure from the tip of the nose), and the dogs have an extreme amount of muzzle 'layback' (slope from nose to chin) - which means that in many cases, measuring from the chin does give the proper ratio.
Title: Re: Head difference by region
Post by: markwantsaboxer on March 27, 2010, 11:08:22 PM
As a generalization, Continental muzzles are about 1/4 the length of the head, rather than the 1/3 the standard requires.  One reason I was given for this (by a breeder in Continental Europe) was that Continental breeders measure from the chin, rather than the tip of the nose (despite the standard's clear instructions to measure from the tip of the nose), and the dogs have an extreme amount of muzzle 'layback' (slope from nose to chin) - which means that in many cases, measuring from the chin does give the proper ratio.
Okay, thanks for the clarification, which also helps to explain the following:

http://www.worldwideboxer.com/head_measurements.html

Since the Euro lines are supposedly the "working" lines and American lines are often dismissed as not "working class", it's mysterious how this custom of breeding for shorter muzzles arose in Europe, since it detracts from working ability.

This is not good.
Title: Re: Head difference by region
Post by: AnnF on March 29, 2010, 06:31:44 PM
I'm just speculating, but wonder if the lines with bigger heads were bred to enhance bite work in Schutzhund Sport, and way back Boar hunting.  I think it's called bite force, and the size of a dog's head has a lot to do with the amount of pressure it can exert with it's jaws.  Rottweillers and Mastiffs I think have the most bite force.  We're talking very large heads.  If you've seen how hard they have to hit the cuff, bite it hard and full, and then hang on while they're lifted off the ground it makes sense that the mouth and jaw are so important.  I wonder if the shorter muzzle makes the bite more efficient.

Ann WI
Title: Re: Head difference by region
Post by: Soleil on March 29, 2010, 06:51:48 PM
Rottweillers and Mastiffs I think have the most bite force.  We're talking very large heads.  If you've seen how hard they have to hit the cuff, bite it hard and full, and then hang on while they're lifted off the ground it makes sense that the mouth and jaw are so important.  I wonder if the shorter muzzle makes the bite more efficient.

Ann WI

As i am learning, i am told boxers need to build up "good grips" at a young age, since they are at a disadvantage relative to the GSD's, Mals and such when it comes to bitework.  We are starting with Trucker now to make sure when he bites, he's using his full mouth (not just the front), so that when he gets to the point of bite work, he can be lifted, etc.  We are currently tagging along w/ Trucker's brother's owner, who is a helper quite often in his club, and he was showing us the difference in bite marks (the GSD's compared to his girl's bite), and it's a huge dif.  That being said, i do not think the short muzzle is an advantage.. the width that we often see with the euros is needed to help compensate (create more surface area) to get that good bite.  (i think anways..  ::) )

I was remarking to Richard after our first session w/ Charles, and said our boy Brutus probably would have had a decent bite-hold, as he had width, and a muzzle that was a bit longer than preferred... lol, we lovingly deemed him "hippo-mouth". 
Title: Re: Head difference by region
Post by: AnnF on March 29, 2010, 07:50:58 PM
How old is Trucker now, and are you enjoying the training?  With the GSD I think the skull only makes up 50% of the head so they can really bite.  I'll have to remember to ask Minna why that shorter muzzle became so standard next training at the club here.  There has to be a reason, or maybe not :inquisitive:

Ann WI

Title: Re: Head difference by region
Post by: Newcastle on March 29, 2010, 07:56:26 PM
Quote
That being said, i do not think the short muzzle is an advantage.. the width that we often see with the euros is needed to help compensate (create more surface area) to get that good bite.

I think you're probably right about that.  

There's a fantastic article by the late Ivor Ward-Davies of the Winuwuk kennel called "The Boxer as a Machine (http://www.americanboxerclub.org/boxer-machine.html)" that discusses the function of the Boxer bite:

Quote
Gripping Tool
This is the Boxer head, a really good design for the job. The teeth actually are the basic tools, the undershot jaw is the clever part. Imagine the dog gripping a bull's nose. The dog is off the ground hanging by the grip. The weight of the dog pivots on the upper teeth forcing the lower jaw upwards, a self locking device. Great width is required to spread the load. The slight upturn of the lower jaw helps the lever action. The self-acting mechanism does not require great muscle power so the Boxer does not require very heavily developed cheek muscles. The stop is deep and folds are always present at the root of the muzzle, a method of keeping blood from out of the eyes. The nose is large, and slightly turned up. These points coupled with the undershot jaw ensure that the Boxer can breathe freely when gripping.
Title: Re: Head difference by region
Post by: Soleil on March 30, 2010, 12:46:22 AM
Ann - Trucker is 16wks old today.  :)

Jennifer - thanks for sharing that blurb from the article!  Very cool!  :2thumbsup:  Is there somewhere to read the entire thing?
Title: Re: Head difference by region
Post by: Newcastle on March 30, 2010, 01:34:03 AM
http://www.americanboxerclub.org/boxer-machine.html

:)
Title: Re: Head difference by region
Post by: Soleil on March 30, 2010, 12:40:05 PM
http://www.americanboxerclub.org/boxer-machine.html

:)

Thanks Jennifer!   :thumbsup:  (and i should have attempted to look on my own huh?  lol)
Title: Re: Head difference by region
Post by: Newcastle on March 30, 2010, 12:42:03 PM
LOL - actually the title in my earlier post is a link, too, but I didn't want to point that out. :laugh4:
Title: Re: Head difference by region
Post by: markwantsaboxer on April 03, 2010, 06:05:01 PM
I'm just speculating, but wonder if the lines with bigger heads were bred to enhance bite work in Schutzhund Sport, and way back Boar hunting.  I think it's called bite force, and the size of a dog's head has a lot to do with the amount of pressure it can exert with it's jaws.  Rottweillers and Mastiffs I think have the most bite force.  We're talking very large heads.  If you've seen how hard they have to hit the cuff, bite it hard and full, and then hang on while they're lifted off the ground it makes sense that the mouth and jaw are so important.  I wonder if the shorter muzzle makes the bite more efficient.

Ann WI
Yes, I've heard that bite pressure is primarily a function of head size, but also of head shape and face muscles.

National Geographic did a test, and their results were for species:

Humans: 120 pounds of bite pressure.   :furious3:

Domestic dogs: 320 LBS of pressure on avg. A German Shepherd Dog, American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT), and Rottweiler were tested using a bite sleeve equipped with a specialized computer instrument. The APBT had the least amount of pressure of the 3 dogs tested.

Wild dogs: 310 lbs

Lions: 600 lbs

White sharks: 600 lbs

Hyenas: 1000 lbs

Snapping turtles: 1000 lbs

Crocodiles: 2500 lbs

For the GSD, Pit, and Rott: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADDxe24ud90&feature=related

German Shepherd: 238 lbs

Pit Bull:  235 lbs

Rottweiler:  328 lbs  :bigcry:

Other (uncertain) dog breeds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-WcIJbx9x8

Dutch Shepherd: 195 lbs.

Bulldog (American?): 220 lbs. or 305 lbs.

Mastiff (Boerboel or Tosa?): 556 lbs.   :dizzy2:

I once read that a Bouvier de Flandres can have a bite force of up to 1000 lbs., but I am skeptical.  :fingerscrossed:

I would assume that a Boxer, with the leverage that a short muzzle provides, would have a very high bite pressure.
Title: Re: Head difference by region
Post by: AnnF on April 04, 2010, 09:01:22 PM
We were working obedience at a Schutzhund club yesterday, and I did ask the breeder about the short muzzle in the Euro lines.  She said it's because that head is considered more beautiful there.  Regarding bite, another member with an imported GSD said the Boxer needs to bite deep into the sleeve because the muzzle is shorter.  I forgot to ask if this allows a stronger hold.  The size and shape of the nose are also important. 

I got to watch a couple Bouviers work last summer, and they were amazing.

Ann WI
Gus-Boxer (1-1/2