Boxer Crazy

The Breed and Breeders => Finding A Breeder => Topic started by: tbs on May 01, 2007, 10:55:00 AM

Title: Seeking advice
Post by: tbs on May 01, 2007, 10:55:00 AM
Sorry so long...

Okay so I think I have found a breeder. However she does have a few drawbacks. First the health testing, both sire and dam where checked for hip dysplasia and Doppler cleared. She informed me that the sire results have been submitted to OFA and damís are already there. I searched for the dam but only found her hip results. I emailed her about it and she said she is going to email me the number, she also informed me that I will get copies of the parents health test as well. She doesnít do Holter Monitor, which isnít a biggie on my list. She also doesnít do test for Thyroid, but admits she should, but says she doesnít because she hasnít had a problem with it in her lines yet. For some reason I have gotten similar responses from other breeders saying, well I know I should test for X but I havenít had a problem with it in my lines yet so I donít test for it.


Another thing I noticed today was the dam just had a litter in Aug. 2006. I am by no means a breeder but isnít the dam suppose to have like a year break?

Other than the 2 health test not being done and the dam being breed last Aug. everything looks good. Contract requires spay/neutered, references checked outÖetc.

The breeder obviously is into maintaining the breed standard as she shows a lot and has quite a few champions.

Breeder Site: http://www.dajenkennels.com/

I am at my wits end with this breeder searchÖÖ
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: Hanna Banana on May 01, 2007, 11:06:46 AM
Its tough.....you are on the right path, post an intro!!!

The Code of Ethics says that back to back breeding is allowed.  This is a grey area in the breeder world because some are against it, and some do not have a problem with it.   However I do not think that a bitch should be bred any more than three times in their lifespan -

Here is what the code says about that -   

Quote
Bitches should be bred only between the ages of eighteen months and six years and should not whelp more than twice in any three consecutive estrus cycles

I would not be turned off if they had a litter in Aug 2006 with the same female, I would just ask why they decided to breed her again, just for purposes of being nosey.   
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: Christen83 on May 01, 2007, 11:09:48 AM
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For some reason I have gotten similar responses from other breeders saying, well I know I should test for X but I havenít had a problem with it in my lines yet so I donít test for it.

Those responses bother me when I get them.  Of course more so when they have an excuse for ALL the tests.  And I think it depends on how far back they can trace their lines.  But in my opinion it's a way to skimp on cost (just an opinion in general not necesarily reflective of this particular breeder - I haven't even pulled the site up yet)

Now looking at the site...
They were established in 1996, so is 10 years long enough to ensure these aren't problems?  But at least they are being up front with you and overall their site looks pretty good.  The pedigree looks great as far as show quality is concerned with lots of champs.

Deffinately on the right track.

Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: Bers on May 01, 2007, 11:13:02 AM
First of all, new members should post an introduction. Please do so when you get a chance, so we can know a bit about you and welcome you properly.

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First the health testing, both sire and dam where checked for hip dysplasia and Doppler cleared. She informed me that the sire results have been submitted to OFA and damís are already there. I searched for the dam but only found her hip results. I emailed her about it and she said she is going to email me the number, she also informed me that I will get copies of the parents health test as well.

As long as she follows through, then I see no problem there.

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She doesnít do Holter Monitor, which isnít a biggie on my list.

I know not everyone is doing Holter tests, but it would be nice. It is becoming easier to get it done, since the equipment is more available.

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She also doesnít do test for Thyroid, but admits she should, but says she doesnít because she hasnít had a problem with it in her lines yet.

That would be the easiest test to have done, I would think. A simple blood test once a year at the regular checkup, how much easier does it get? I would really want to see that done, personally.

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For some reason I have gotten similar responses from other breeders saying, well I know I should test for X but I havenít had a problem with it in my lines yet so I donít test for it.

This seems not very good logic - by the time a problem does show up in the lines, it will likely have been passed on many times.

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Another thing I noticed today was the dam just had a litter in Aug. 2006. I am by no means a breeder but isnít the dam suppose to have like a year break?

I'm no expert on breeding, but it's my understanding that sometimes back-to-back breedings are done, and that it's actually better for the bitch. But there would need to be a good reason for the back-to-back breedings, I would think.

Overall, the breeder seems promising, but there are some issues you might want to get worked out. And in the end it will depend greatly on the kind of relationship you can form with the breeder. Is she someone you can trust? Do you feel confident in the information she's given you? Is she producing these boxers with care, and placing them equally as carefully? Does she invest as much into her pet puppies as she does her show puppies? Will she continue to be an asset and a help to you after you bring your puppy home?
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: BranwenBoxers on May 01, 2007, 11:22:13 AM
Well ....

Doing back to back breedings is better on the Bitch then skipping a whole year .   Also I would be worried about the breeder not doing the Holter .  The holter checks for ARVC ( Arrhythmic Right Ventricular Cardiomyopathy ) which is very prevelent in our breed . Here is a link to help you understand what it is about .  

http://americanboxerclub.org/boxer_cardiomyopathy.html

The Echo checks for a totaly different heart problem .....

I would ask the breeder why she has not done the Holter on her dogs .  
 

Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: RocketBoxer on May 01, 2007, 11:26:15 AM
I don't know......in my book the holter is one of THE most important tests to be done. There is no way that I would consider a puppy whose parents hadn't been cleared of SAS (doppler) and cardiomyopathy (holter).
The hips and the thyroid are the 2 that I think are nice to have, but not essential.

I hear of so many heart related issues in boxers these days, that I don't think it is worth taking a chance on this.

Just my 2 cents worth.....
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: Newcastle on May 01, 2007, 12:31:58 PM
I agree with Kerry - for basically the same amount of money, I'd far rather see a holter than a hip x-ray.  (Unless, of course, hip dysplasia has been a problem in the lines.) 

The Doppler info might not have been submitted to OFA; unlike hips, you get your Doppler results even if you don't send the form in to OFA.  So long as you get a hard copy of the results, I wouldn't sweat the OFA thing on that.

There is a difference between saying "it's not in my lines" and saying "I haven't had a problem with it yet", so be aware of that.  The common Boxer health conditions (AS, ARVC, hip dysplasia, hypothyroidism) are found in *all* lines - but not all breeders will have had problems with them.  (Hips, especially, seem to be not as much of a problem in the show-bred population as they are in the pet-bred population.) 

Overall, honestly, if this is a pet puppy then you'd probably be fine.  (Not that pet puppies deserve any less health-wise than show puppies - but pet puppies won't be bred, so the risk of unknowingly passing on a problem is eliminated.)  If it were me, I might casually mention that I was uncomfortable with the lack of holtering, because ARVC is so widespread in the breed, and I would much prefer a holter done on both parents (at their ages, ideally multiple), but I also understand that ARVC is often a late-onset disease, so there's still a risk even if they've had clear or low holters in the past.  (The key point is that holters will often identify obviously affected individuals who are showing no outward symptoms of the disease.) 
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: tbs on May 01, 2007, 06:23:58 PM
Thank you all for all your replies. I have found your responses very helpfully. Still haven't decided yet, I have a tendency to over analyze. Iíll think on it some more and keep yall(yes I am from the south..;) ) posted.

I guess the reason I have don't view holter as high as a priority as the others is that a holter result only tells you that during that 24 hour period the dog didn't show any bad signs. I know that generally over time having a low holter each year gives you a good indication that the dog doesn't have suffer from ARVC. To me the holter test seems to have to many other variables that come into play. If I am wrong correct me but that is just what I have learned from research and I don't claim to be a boxer expert by any means.
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: Newcastle on May 02, 2007, 08:13:45 AM
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a holter result only tells you that during that 24 hour period the dog didn't show any bad signs

That is correct, *if* the holter shows no (or a low number of) abnormal beats. 

If, on the other hand, the holter shows hundreds or thousands of abnormal beats, you know the dog is affected.  If a dog who is throwing 2,000 abnormal beats isn't holtered, not only will he be bred and pass that disease on to roughly half of his puppies, but his owners also may not find out about his condition until it's too late (i.e., he drops dead). *That* is the value of the holter - to identify the obviously affected dogs, so that they can be removed from breeding *and* so that they can be monitored and treated as necessary. 
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: fairview Boxers on May 02, 2007, 08:32:38 AM
Hi,
I had a show lined male that I got several years back.  He had never had any health testing done, so I decided to do his tests ( he was about 2 when I got him)...  The first thing I did was a holter, it is the easiest to do ( for the heart) and the most prevalant disease in the breed.  When I got his results, I almost fell off my chair....  He had over 21,000 VPC's, I took him in the next day to be neutered, and he was placed with a neighbor.  He was on meds when he began to show exercise intolerance ( about 5 months after he was placed), he did a short time after that.  Prior to having the holter done, he showed absolutely NO signs, he played the same as my other boxers, and he never had any other health issues. 
Looking back on the WHOLE picture, it would have been nice to have a yearly one too, to see how the disease progressed for him!  SO, that is what I do now...  I holter yearly.. to keep a running record of it, except for my spayed female, she will get done this June and it will be two years since her last holter.  Her first holter was 0, and her second had 1 VPC...

It is nice if you are building or maintaining a line to have a running record of age progression and this disease especially!!!

JMO
Kat
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: Bers on May 02, 2007, 09:46:21 AM
Thanks for that first-hand story illustrating the importance of this test.
Title: Update
Post by: tbs on June 05, 2007, 10:33:36 AM
The puppies have finally arrived, however there where no fawn pups. :( The wife is dead set on a fawn pup. She was considering just sucking it up and getting a brindle but she was afraid she may resent the dog then, so the search is on again. I personally prefer brindle but am okay with either. So the search continues, going on 3-4months nowÖ.
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: Hanna Banana on June 05, 2007, 10:43:27 AM
Sorry now fawns - however color is just that.....color.

You may find a fawn you like but has a horrible temperment!   Just a thought not to disqualify a dog for color, for you may be searching for a long time:)

Whatever avenue you choose good luck on your search!!
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: tbs on June 05, 2007, 10:55:25 AM
I agree with you 100%.
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: Hobo on June 05, 2007, 10:56:41 AM
I agree with you 100%.

Just wanted to let you know you are not alone. my OH wants a certain color.  I have tried explaining it, I am trying to get her to join the site, here so she can learn some more info.

Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: Hanna Banana on June 05, 2007, 10:59:19 AM
Darn Women!  ha ha ha
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: tbs on June 05, 2007, 11:05:40 AM
Just wanted to let you know you are not alone. my OH wants a certain color.  I have tried explaining it, I am trying to get her to join the site, here so she can learn some more info.

Nice to know.
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: GypsyMystic on June 05, 2007, 01:13:38 PM
Maybe you should get her to go see the puppies, just to look.  :yes: ;)

When I started looking I was set on a fawn male, came home with a brindle female. Then a couple years later started looking again for a fawn male, and came home with a fawn female! DH said at least I got the color right with the second one. I don't have any regrets or resentment towards either one, and I did have the option of fawn males in both litters that I picked from.
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: BurningRiver on June 05, 2007, 01:43:39 PM
Hi,
I'm definitely coming in on this a bit late, but I just wanted to tell you to keep your options open. While I realize that we all have our color preferences, personality of the puppy is much, much more important than the color is. I won't allow my prospective buyers pick the puppy that they want, rather I will match them with the best personality for their current living situation, personality and lifestyle.

I also wanted to add that there is absolutely, positively no way that I'd ever consider purchasing a puppy (or using stud services from, for that matter) a breeder who doesn't holter. Holtering is the absolutely most basic, bare minimum health test that breeders should be performing, IMO. ARVC is no joke - dogs drop dead from this condition while running in the yard with no warning at all.

Good luck in your search. I know it can be frustrating, but keep in mind that you are making a decision that will last you for the next 10-14 years of your life. . . In the grand scheme of things, 3-4 months really isn't that long to wait, but I know that it absolutely seem like it is right now.
Title: Update
Post by: tbs on June 06, 2007, 12:25:11 PM
Okay so I have gotten the wife to consider brindle. I was also searching around for other available litters and ran across this one: http://www.pro-boxers.com/levi_x_meghan_8wks.html the wife has fallen in love with Puppy #6. I am not to sure about this breeder(main page:http://www.pro-boxers.com/) though as she has alot of dogs, and non of the females seem to have been shown. Going to call breeder and get more info.
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: Hobo on June 06, 2007, 12:29:43 PM
I wonder why they didnt crop the ears on number 6, since they cropped all the others.

I am still reviewing the site but I noticed that.
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: Hanna Banana on June 06, 2007, 12:30:37 PM
They are fine, and these pups have a great pedigree.

http://www.pro-boxers.com/levi_x_meghan.html


Levi is a popular studd dog as well as Am / Mex Champion.  Its ok for the dam to not have a title as long as she is health tested.

Here is the page for Levi.

http://www.pro-boxers.com/levi.html
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: Hanna Banana on June 06, 2007, 12:33:30 PM
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wonder why they didnt crop the ears on number 6, since they cropped all the others.


Hobo, she is not a show prospect, hence maybe reasoning behind leaving ears natural.
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: Hobo on June 06, 2007, 12:41:16 PM


They are fine, and these pups have a great pedigree.

http://www.pro-boxers.com/levi_x_meghan.html


Levi is a popular studd dog as well as Am / Mex Champion.  Its ok for the dam to not have a title as long as she is health tested.

Here is the page for Levi.

http://www.pro-boxers.com/levi.html

There was nothing shown for the female being health tested?  When I followed the female link.
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: Hanna Banana on June 06, 2007, 12:44:15 PM
That would be something you would have to ask Peggy Otto (breeder / owner):)


Both of the dogs parents have been tested you can see the results on their pages, as for the dam herself, not sure, but would not see why not, but then again, something to ask:)
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: RocketBoxer on June 06, 2007, 12:46:20 PM
Yes, puppy 6 sure is a cutie. I would agree that they probably left the ears natural because the puppy is not a show prospect.
If you find a litter of pups, you really need to meet them. If you do you will find that color really isn't a determining factor - it is personality. I think it is perfectly okay to have a color preference (I know I do), but personality/temperament should be more important.

When you call the breeder just make sure that both parents have been health tested, and that she is prepared to give you documentation showing the health testing (you never know she might be one of those breeder's who health tests the stud dogs but not the females, since there is nothing on the website about the female being tested?).

I would also want to know what Pro's Ace in the Hole died of, when he died at 7 years of age. This litter is line bred fairly heavily on him.
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: Hobo on June 06, 2007, 01:07:06 PM
I saw a few people put up a coefficient of inbreeding table, with different numbers. 

What is that all about?  Is that something to be concerned with when choosing a breeder?

How do you read them, what is good what is bad?

Maybe we need are resident mathematician Carolyn.
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: RocketBoxer on June 06, 2007, 01:13:30 PM
I don't know much about it myself, but here is an interesting article -
http://www.canine-genetics.com/relation.htm
http://www.dogstuff.info/playing_coi_sharp.html

Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: Hanna Banana on June 06, 2007, 01:20:34 PM
Not sure about the numbers thing, however "Linebreeding"  does happen with some rep. breeders.   I have seen pedigrees that the sire and dam have the same dog in their lineage.

I think you (the breeder) need to really know your lines well inorder to acheive what you want with linebreeding.


That maybe a good topic in the "Ethics" category Hobo since it confuses me at times too!!
Title: Re: Seeking advice
Post by: RocketBoxer on June 06, 2007, 01:43:35 PM
Most books that I have read on genetics say that line breeding is the way to go, and a lot of people do it. Line breeding can magnify the positive in your dogs, but it can also magnify the negative traits. One of my books says the following -
'The object of linebreeding is to accmulate the genetic contributions of one outstanding ancestor, and this ancestor becomes of paramount importance. ....it should not be necessary to point out that, unless the dog to which one is line-breeding is truly an outstanding example of its breed, both physically and genetically, the breeder may be downgrading his stock rather that upgrading it.'

Say, if for example, you had a pedigree where the same dog was present multiple times and this dog lived a long and healthy life - say he lived till he was 14. I would think that would be a pretty good thing. The chances are good that this dog's genes have been passed down to the puppies, and you would hope for health and longevity in the puppies.
But, by the same token, if you had a dog, who appeared multiple times in the pedigree and this dog died young and had a serious health issue, the chances are also good that this might be passed down to the puppies. The chances are far greater that there would be an issue, as opposed to this dog just appearing once in the pedigree.

Now, I am not saying that there is an issue with these puppies. I have no idea. But, if I were a puppy buyer I would want to know more about this dog, seeing that he appears so often in this pedigree.  He could have been run over by a car, for all I know.....