Boxer Crazy

The Competitive Boxer => Conformation Showing => Topic started by: Hanna Banana on April 27, 2007, 12:43:56 PM

Title: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: Hanna Banana on April 27, 2007, 12:43:56 PM
So as I just read that tail are no longer going to be allowed to be docked in England as of this month.   

I know Italy already had this in place.

With more and more UK and Euro dogs having tail docking banned is that going to affect the US international dog shows to allow it or at least not consider it a fault?
Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: Renee on April 27, 2007, 03:34:49 PM
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With more and more UK and Euro dogs having tail docking banned is that going to affect the US international dog shows to allow it or at least not consider it a fault?

No, the us has no international dog shows (in boxers anyway), except IABCA, which is already supposed to follow the FCI#144.

Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: Hanna Banana on April 27, 2007, 03:38:39 PM
Thanks Renee -

Isn't there a category in an AKC show like an  "Open" that you can show an import in.   For something like  that that follows AKC rules, having an import with a tale will be a fault.

Maybe I make more sense that way.
Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: Renee on April 27, 2007, 06:34:56 PM
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Isn't there a category in an AKC show like an  "Open" that you can show an import in
.

Sure, you can show an import in anything but Am-bred...(and bred-by if you're not the breeder of course) but all the puppy and jr classes 6-9, 9-12, 12-18 those are OK too.

Of course 60-70 years ago, having an Am. Bred class made more sense than it does now...

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For something like that that follows AKC rules, having an import with a tale will be a fault.

And it's only AKC shows (that I know of) bound by AKC rules.  A friend of mine finished Josie's half-sister Essi with a full tail in UKC.

Keep in mind the standard re: tails:

" An undocked tail should be severely penalized. "

I'd consider it more than an average fault when worded like that.

Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: bombersmama on April 27, 2007, 08:38:20 PM
I actually heard once that New York was banning tail and ear cropping...didnt hear much more after that though.  I hope they dont do away with tail cropping...That is one of the boxers signature trait. 
Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: Hulk on April 28, 2007, 03:31:22 PM
I am not going to throw my opinion into this b/c it is a touchy subject...I wish that breeders did give buyers more choice when it comes to docking...I understand why that is hard however...the same way those in favor of  docking want the choice so do those against docking :angry:
Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: Newcastle on April 28, 2007, 05:42:09 PM
If it weren't for the age thing, I'm sure most breeders would be open to leaving docking optional.  Certainly most are amenable to letting the buyers decide about ear cropping, and in fact some actively discourage cropping of pet puppies. 
Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: highdrama on April 29, 2007, 06:49:04 AM
I would fight tooth and nail to have CHOICE if I were you.  There was a huge campaign here for and against.  Personally, I'm for and I couldn't care less who disagrees, because that is everyone's right, choice!  The reason I am for is that I have seen and heard of numerous tail injuries on undocked working dogs, which have never been bred for tails.  Docking is much more humane and ultimately painless compared to the amputation of a tail in later life due to constant injury.  It worries me now that my next boxer will have a tail for this reason but it won't shy me away from boxers nevertheless.

Britain is becoming a Big Brother state.  We do not have a choice on so many things and that is wrong.  We do not need people to dictate to us.  For goodness sake, we absolutely adore our dogs and always want what's best for them.  We don't need some muppet in parliament dictating to us.

Getting off my soapbox now but please fight for the right to choose what is best for you and yours.
Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: BranwenBoxers on April 29, 2007, 12:07:57 PM
Well ......   I perfer a docked / banded tail , and like my ears both way's  .   If you plan on showing in the AKC Conformation  classes  I am sure you will need to have the tail docked .   


I sure hope we don't losse the right to Crop / Dock , but if we do I will not be without this great breed .   
Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: Carolyn on April 29, 2007, 01:46:17 PM
I was under the impression that the ban on docking and cropping in the UK has already been passed, :(  It is in place in AUS and NZ,

I had a foster that had to have his tail amputated due to him busting it open every 10mins. He had my house looking like a CSI crime scene. :eek:  I do prefer a docked tail, but personally feel unless you are actively showing in conformation that the ear cropping is unnecessary.
Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: highdrama on April 29, 2007, 02:20:17 PM
It has been passed Carolyn and good old Scotland, in an attempt to justify having it's own "parliament" passed it first.  I just don't agree with it, I prefer to "choose" what is best for my dog(s).
Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: Newcastle on April 29, 2007, 06:14:24 PM
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I prefer to "choose" what is best for my dog(s).

And that's exactly the point.  Medical decisions should be made by the owner (and yes, with regards to tails that does mean the litter owner) in consultation with their veterinarian, not by the government in a blanket policy.  We're fighting the same thing right now in California with a proposed mandatory spay/neuter law - nevermind the fact that these laws have historically, repeatedly been proved ineffective at addressing the problem they're hyped to address, nevermind that spay/neuter at four months of age is not always in the best interests of the dog or cat, nevermind that this law will for all practical purposes eliminate responsible breeding in California - the AR groups have twisted the facts so that many people believe that removing the rights of owners to make medical care decisions for their pets is in everyone's best interests. 

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For goodness sake, we absolutely adore our dogs and always want what's best for them.  We don't need some muppet in parliament dictating to us.

Amen to that! :)
Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: Hanna Banana on April 30, 2007, 09:00:56 AM
I am "Pro-choice" for the cropping/docking.  I think its personal preference.  I like my ears natural and my tails short. 

However, when thinking about geting an import, now the docking comes in to question.   Next year they may pass a law on docking that may not allow me to get my pup with no tail.  That may post an issue for me.   So may have to choose another breeder.  As for now there is not ban in Serbia, so I hope it stay that way.   :partybanana:

Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: kaz on April 30, 2007, 03:29:30 PM
The docking ban came into force on April 6th here in the UK...Any litter born after that date cannot legally be docked...We can always nip across the Ireland and get them legally docked ( ;)Hee hee) but if we did so we cannot show them at a fee paying KC event..And that means Crufts ladies...
Crufts has become an International affair more in more recent years, But if the you plan to pop over ever...be aware that your legally docked dogs cannot be shown under KC rules and UK law...
Not last year but the year before an American dog took best in show...I think it was an australian sheepdog (am bred) Correct me if i am wrong...That dog was lovely but was docked unless they are born bob tailed (not too sure)...As of this year no more docked dogs can be shown unless they were born and docked before April 6th...

Gayle i was one of many who fought long and hard to retain the right to make my own choice...I wrote to and emailed MP's, I have the replies filed away...(talk about issue and question evasion)...and i agree...we are governed by a bunch of muppets who would rather please the mis-informed majority than listen to the well informed minority..It irritates the hell out of me... :furious3:
Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: highdrama on April 30, 2007, 03:32:38 PM
You and me both, MPs and MSPs, anyone who would listen but they listen then do their own thing.  What bugs me is all these fresh out of nappies vets helped make this decision.  What about age old vets who worked well with breeders for years and years?  Who have seen the need for amputation of tails over and over again?  Grrrrr, gonna shuddup cos it makes me so mad.
Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: kaz on April 30, 2007, 03:34:10 PM
my vet was lobbying MP's too...not cos he is pro docking, but because he is pro choice...and realises the slippery slope we as a pet loving nation has begun to slip down...Government controlled everything...!!!
Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: Bugsys Mom on April 30, 2007, 04:55:09 PM
Believe it or not the US is not much better.  I sincerely hope taill docking is not banned here.  There is a need for it unlike ear cropping.  They are done for entirely different reasons.  Tail docking is not merely for cosmetic reasons.  I love the cropped ear look, but I don't have the patience to put into the care and upkeep.  It is like the government outlawing circumcision. ::)
Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: Hulk on April 30, 2007, 10:10:07 PM
I have met boxers with tails at the park, apparently there is a breeder in austin that does not dock or crop...Talking with the owners, I asked how it was having a tail and they said it was not a problem...Like everyone has already stated it is about choice...While you guys in the UK don't have a choice either do those in the US who are against docking...I grew up around Ridgebacks and their tails much like the Boxer is long and powerful! I did see accidents with their tales from time to time but as a standard the breed is not docked. I have seen dogs wacked in the face by labs with their powerful tail but again docking for them would be cruel as they are strong swimmers(use the tail for swimming)...Other then Boxers injuring their tale which is not certain they will, why else? If it is not about cosmetics then the AKC should re-evaluate their rules the same way they did with cropping..
I appreciate what breeders do for the boxer as far as keeping the genes and protecting the standard..I completely understand why it would be hard for a breeder not to dock(age) BUT it would be nice to have a choice....
I am not trying to upset anyone but the I guess the grass is always greener on the other side
Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: Renee on May 01, 2007, 08:08:59 AM
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Like everyone has already stated it is about choice...While you guys in the UK don't have a choice either do those in the US who are against docking...

I'm in the US, and I absolutely have a choice...I may choose to work with a breeder in the states and ask them not to dock a tail, I have a choice to import a Boxer from a country that does not dock tails. You have the same choices I do, right?

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If it is not about cosmetics then the AKC should re-evaluate their rules the same way they did with cropping..

ABC...the ABC makes those decisions.  And you have the choice to get involved if you feel strongly one way or another.

I see alot of Boxers with tails, many of my friends own them, and the dog I bred Josie to has a tail, so I've grown used to them and could go either way - point being, I have that choice.





Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: Hanna Banana on May 01, 2007, 08:42:03 AM
Renee -

Just a quick question.   Would it be harder for a boxer with a tail to compete in agility or is that something you just get used to as in say training the other dogs with tails?
Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: Renee on May 01, 2007, 09:06:06 AM
It's actually the Boxers that are docked that have to learn to compensate balance, jumping, turning and acceleration/braking, because they don't have the tail as a counter-balance.

Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: Hanna Banana on May 01, 2007, 09:11:50 AM
Gottach - that does make sense! 
Title: Re: Banning Tail Docking.
Post by: Hulk on May 01, 2007, 05:44:59 PM
Renee-thanks for the options...I am involved...So far, the breeders I have contacted are not willing to do that...You are so lucky that those breeders do that for you. :thumbsup: