Boxer Crazy

The Breed and Breeders => The Boxer Standard => Topic started by: alncris on January 04, 2009, 03:30:11 PM

Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: alncris on January 04, 2009, 03:30:11 PM
The article that was provided here in an earlier post is fantastic in pointing out the differences in UK/Continental/US boxers.

It has been a while since I read it, but does it talk about temperament and or drive differences.

IMHO generally speaking, US boxers lack drive.

The question is whether or not it is important to anybody anymore? Since very few if any boxers are used for work and/or would be the first choice of anyone in most situations why breed for it?

No doubt it is deviating from the standard. But again, it doesn't seem to matter much anyway to most.
Most people want pets, and can barely handle a sedate boxer, much less one with a true temperament.

I am not trying to disrespect anyone's dog, or trying to make anyone feel bad. I want to get opinions.
Thanks
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: Newcastle on January 05, 2009, 12:24:24 PM
This comes up quite often, and I've thought about it a lot recently as there was a bit of hullabaloo about a DogWorld article last month.

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IMHO generally speaking, US boxers lack drive.

I think North American Boxers in general have less "working" drive than Continental Boxers in general; I'm not sure that's the same thing as lacking drive.

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The question is whether or not it is important to anybody anymore? Since very few if any boxers are used for work and/or would be the first choice of anyone in most situations why breed for it?

One should breed for the correct temperament.  You could make the same argument about the foreshortened muzzle, underbite, square body, etc. - very few if any Boxers are used for work which requires those traits, so why breed for it?

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No doubt it is deviating from the standard.

Here's the thing - I'm not sure it is deviating.  Where in the standard does it say that the Boxer must have "drive"?  Where have we gotten the idea that the Boxer is first and foremost a "high-drive working" - which in most cases these days is interpreted as "Schutzhund" - dog?  Don't get me wrong - I know the Boxer is a working dog, but the standards all describe a dog that is a family companion first, and a guard or working dog second.  The ideal Boxer is an all-around dog, that fits well into a family and is game to perform whatever tasks are asked of it - companion, protector, guardian, show dog, therapy dog, service dog, agility, obedience, herding, lure coursing, etc.  Even the FCI standard states, "he is just as agreeable and appreciated in the family circle as he is as a guard, companion and working dog." 

For those relatively few owners (in the US and Canada, at least) who want to participate in specific types of "work", an emphasis on a specific aspect of the "drive" might be more important - but for most, the typical, correct, "all-around" Boxer temperament is appropriate.  I think John Wagner says it best:

"Other breeds have pronounced specialized talents . . . . hunting, herding, trailing, and so on . . . but for a combination of the outstanding virtues of many with the faults of a few, our Boxer is the most gifted of canines. For the man, woman or child who wants an all-round dog, he has no equal. No other dog is more individual in appearance, more keenly intelligent or sanely even-tempered. These virtues alone are priceless if the dog is to become part of his master's family, which he should for the well-being of all concerned. The Boxer has a faculty of worming his way into the good graces and the hearts of an entire household. He seems to offer something special to each person he meets."
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BurningRiver on January 05, 2009, 01:07:33 PM
IMHO generally speaking, US boxers lack drive.

I disagree. I have three who are all high drive, but all in different areas. One is excessively high in three of the four drives and her temperament is sharp. Another is high in two drives, but moderate in the other two, the third is high in pack drive, but moderate in the other three. Balance is key. Too much drive and you end up with sharpness. Too little and you end up with dullness.

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The question is whether or not it is important to anybody anymore? Since very few if any boxers are used for work and/or would be the first choice of anyone in most situations why breed for it?

For the same reason we breed for squished noses, and the wrinkles on the face, and correct ear leather, and square build and. . . You see where I'm going. ;) None of these things are really required for the majority of today's boxers' jobs (family pets and show dogs), but that's not a valid reason to discard the hallmarks of what makes a boxer, a boxer. ;)
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: alncris on January 05, 2009, 02:16:50 PM
Here's the thing - I'm not sure it is deviating.  Where in the standard does it say that the Boxer must have "drive"?  Where have we gotten the idea that the Boxer is first and foremost a "high-drive working" - which in most cases these days is interpreted as "Schutzhund" - dog?  Don't get me wrong - I know the Boxer is a working dog, but the standards all describe a dog that is a family companion first, and a guard or working dog second.  The ideal Boxer is an all-around dog, that fits well into a family and is game to perform whatever tasks are asked of it - companion, protector, guardian, show dog, therapy dog, service dog, agility, obedience, herding, lure coursing, etc.  Even the FCI standard states, "he is just as agreeable and appreciated in the family circle as he is as a guard, companion and working dog." 

Not to be argumentative but this is an excerpt from the ABC standard
 "General Appearance
The ideal Boxer is a medium-sized, square-built dog of good substance with short back, strong limbs, and short, tight-fitting coat. His well-developed muscles are clean, hard, and appear smooth under taut skin. His movements denote energy. The gait is firm yet elastic, the stride free and ground-covering, the carriage proud. Developed to serve as guard, working, and companion dog, he combines strength and agility with elegance and style. His expression is alert and his temperament steadfast and tractable...."


This is from FCI

"The Boxer should be fearless self-confident, calm and equable. Temperament is of the utmost importance and requires careful attention. Devotion and loyalty towards his master and his entire household, his watchfulness and self-assured courage as a defender are famous."

I think the standards both describe a dog who is first and foremost a guard dog. So I think drive is decribed in the standard.

We may be splitting hairs, but the real question is what do you guys as breeders make sure correct temperament is bred for?
Do you guys breed schutzhund or agility titled dogs? or do you have another way to judge temperament.
Thanks for your viewpoint.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BoxerWB on January 05, 2009, 02:23:22 PM
And thanks for yours, although it'd be nice to know more about you so we know where your opinions are coming from...

You realize the passage you bolded just goes to Jen's point, right?  Guard dog doesn't mean Schutzhund dog, and working dog doesn't specify it either. To be able to do all three (work, guard, companion), the boxer must be a good "all around" dog, as Jen said.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: blynn03 on January 05, 2009, 02:24:48 PM
Not to be argumentative but this is an excerpt from the ABC standard

What you've listed is found under the general appearance section, and is meant to describe why the boxer is built the way it is.  Here is what it says under the character temperment section, and I've bolded some points that show what I believe to be in agreement with what Jennifer said...YES they are a working dog, but they are also a companion.  They aren't meant to be so "drivey" that they can't comfortably live with humans.

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Instinctively a hearing guard dog, his bearing is alert, dignified, and self-assured. In the show ring his behavior should exhibit constrained animation. With family and friends, his temperament is fundamentally playful, yet patient and stoical with children. Deliberate and wary with strangers, he will exhibit curiosity, but, most importantly, fearless courage if threatened. However, he responds promptly to friendly overtures honestly rendered. His intelligence, loyal affection, and tractability to discipline make him a highly desirable companion. Any evidence of shyness, or lack of dignity or alertness, should be severely penalized.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: blynn03 on January 05, 2009, 02:29:02 PM
Even Renee's dogs, which are probably some of the best examples of "working boxers" on this forum, aren't so drivey that they're unbearable to live with.  I think she said that they "have an on/off switch"....which, IMO, is a good description of the way they should be as well-rounded dogs.

Renee...please let me know if I've misquoted you or represented you/your dogs in the wrong way.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: alncris on January 05, 2009, 02:52:35 PM
And thanks for yours, although it'd be nice to know more about you so we know where your opinions are coming from...

You realize the passage you bolded just goes to Jen's point, right?  Guard dog doesn't mean Schutzhund dog, and working dog doesn't specify it either. To be able to do all three (work, guard, companion), the boxer must be a good "all around" dog, as Jen said.

I disagree. I don't think it goes to Jen's point. Thats the reason I quoted it. ::)
Also I never said guard dog meant Schutzhund dog.
I do agree that the boxer must be balanced, but a boxer that is unable to do all three(work,guard,companion) as you put it is not within the standard.

A boxer with correct drive/temperament is a handful even in the hands of the right person, not drivey or unbearable to live with. It can be drivey or unbearable if the persons personality is meek or timid. This does not mean that one should be bold or rude either. It means a firm personality.

I feel like people here are taking this offensively and I don't wish to offend. It it offends someone, then I apologize, but perhaps a little introspect is in order.

For the record not all dogs in any breeds cut the mustard when it comes to work drive. Even German Shepards, Dobermans and Malinois have poor examples.

How do the breeders in the US breed for temperament?
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: blynn03 on January 05, 2009, 03:02:38 PM
...but a boxer that is unable to do all three(work,guard,companion) as you put it is not within the standard.


I disagree.  Boxers weren't bred to ALL be good at ALL of those things.  There are always going to be some that are better workers than others, some that are better guarding dogs than others, and some that are better companions than others. 

I think it means that the breed as a whole is well-rounded...that we should be able to find some good workers, some good guardians, and some good companions within the breed.  We should be able to find dogs that would be pretty good at any of those things, and maybe above average or exceptional at one or two of them.  It is unrealistic to expect all boxers to be good at all of those things.  There is no "perfect" dog, afterall.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: blynn03 on January 05, 2009, 03:05:56 PM
I feel like people here are taking this offensively and I don't wish to offend. It it offends someone, then I apologize, but perhaps a little introspect is in order.


I don't think anyone is taking offense here with regards to the issue at hand, I know I am certainly not.  BUT, I know you have been repeatedly asked to give an introduction here....and honestly, I find it a bit offensive that someone who won't even tell us who they are or anything about themselves would direct the rest of us that "a little introspect is in order." 
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BoxerWB on January 05, 2009, 03:10:03 PM
Alncris - I don't think anyone is taking offense.. you bring up an opinion, those who disagree with rebut it.

Aren't you located in the US? Just wondering since you are asking how US breeders breed for temperament and if you're active in boxers in the US, I would think you'd have discussed this w/some of them. I guess it's just hard to tell since you never gave us any real background. It helps to know where someone is coming from, to understand their perspective and where their knowledge has come from.

How is a dog "being a handful even in the hands of the right person" a good thing? This seems like a dog that is temperamentally unbalanced to me. Not to trot out Renee as an example again (but I will) - she has dogs who are very drivey and what she describes to me sounds like a dog who's temperament she thoroughly enjoys working with, not a dog she'd call "a handful."
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: blynn03 on January 05, 2009, 03:12:19 PM
Not to trot out Renee as an example again (but I will) - she has dogs who are very drivey and what she describes to me sounds like a dog who's temperament she thoroughly enjoys working with, not a dog she'd call "a handful."

Ditto....that's what I meant earlier, however you said it a little more eloquently than I did.   :laugh4:  It's pretty obvious that she loves working with her dogs, and loves her dogs at home too.   :thumbsup:
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: alncris on January 05, 2009, 03:51:22 PM
I think it is obvious you guys are taking offense with my question because you are avoiding the question and citing other persons experience.
Tell me what your experiences are with working dogs and drives.

Yes I said a handful BoxerWB. Grab a hold of the leash of a working dog once and you will learn what that is.

The bottom line is that the US boxer is diluted in its work capacity and no one here seems to care to restore that.
Instead personal offense is taken when each one of your dogs is questioned in that regard.

I am not saying my current dogs are the best either.

My question again if someone CAN answer it...How are US breeders breeding for temperament?



Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: blynn03 on January 05, 2009, 04:02:50 PM
No one is avoiding your question....we are disagreeing with the very assertations you make in your first post.

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IMHO generally speaking, US boxers lack drive.

I think North American Boxers in general have less "working" drive than Continental Boxers in general; I'm not sure that's the same thing as lacking drive.

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No doubt it is deviating from the standard.

Here's the thing - I'm not sure it is deviating.  Where in the standard does it say that the Boxer must have "drive"?  Where have we gotten the idea that the Boxer is first and foremost a "high-drive working" - which in most cases these days is interpreted as "Schutzhund" - dog?  Don't get me wrong - I know the Boxer is a working dog, but the standards all describe a dog that is a family companion first, and a guard or working dog second.  The ideal Boxer is an all-around dog, that fits well into a family and is game to perform whatever tasks are asked of it - companion, protector, guardian, show dog, therapy dog, service dog, agility, obedience, herding, lure coursing, etc.  Even the FCI standard states, "he is just as agreeable and appreciated in the family circle as he is as a guard, companion and working dog." 

For those relatively few owners (in the US and Canada, at least) who want to participate in specific types of "work", an emphasis on a specific aspect of the "drive" might be more important - but for most, the typical, correct, "all-around" Boxer temperament is appropriate.

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Quote from: alncris on Yesterday at 03:30:11 PM
IMHO generally speaking, US boxers lack drive.


I disagree. I have three who are all high drive, but all in different areas. One is excessively high in three of the four drives and her temperament is sharp. Another is high in two drives, but moderate in the other two, the third is high in pack drive, but moderate in the other three. Balance is key. Too much drive and you end up with sharpness. Too little and you end up with dullness.



You can't just expect everyone to take what you say as fact, especially when you've provided faulty information on this forum before, and answer your questions exactly as you've asked them when we don't agree with the very basis of your argument.

Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BoxerWB on January 05, 2009, 04:03:17 PM
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I think it is obvious you guys are taking offense with my question because you are avoiding the question and citing other persons experience.
Tell me what your experiences are with working dogs and drives.

We're answering your questions, just not the way you want them answered.. but there is a reason for that, which is quite plain if you've read some of my other threads on this forum:

My dogs are one BYB and one Amish puppymill dog. So I can't tell you about drives in *responsibly* bred US dogs... I don't have one yet. And in a "Boxer Standard" discussion, we aren't talking about the Joe Schmoe rescue dogs or BYB pets, since they aren't expected to be part of the standard or part of the breeding pool.

I'm not going to talk about experiences that I don't have, if I contribute, I'm going to talk about what I've seen in other people's responsibly bred dogs because that is the reference I have.

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Yes I said a handful BoxerWB. Grab a hold of the leash of a working dog once and you will learn what that is.

So are you trying to say that working dogs pull on leash or something? How does holding a leash apply to this situation? Does interacting with a drivey dog but not holding their leash count? Ah, but what if the dog doesn't meet *your* definition of drivey?

No personal offense is taken about my dogs, and I'm sure Brandy doesn't take personal offense about hers - we don't breed. So if our dogs aren't drivey, we aren't "responsible" for the "diluting" you believe is occurring. No skin off our backs.

For someone who believes we are avoiding questions, you answer none yourself. How about a little accountability and background for all these strong opinions? How about telling us about your dogs, I don't believe we know anything about them, and what your experience is with them, and how they might influence your opinion on this topic.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: Newcastle on January 05, 2009, 04:07:43 PM
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I think the standards both describe a dog who is first and foremost a guard dog.


I could somewhat see that with the AKC standard, since "guard" is listed first in General Appearance section, though I disagree with the conclusion - but how do you feel the FCI standard describes a guard dog first and foremost? Because "fearless" and "self-confident" come first in the first sentence?  In the other sentences, the "family dog" traits - devotion, loyalty, harmlessness with family, happy and friendly in play, etc., all come before any guard traits, so I'm just not seeing how you find that a guard dog is what the standard is describing.  

Now, if you'd mentioned the Canadian standard, there might be more of an argument for your position, as it states, in the "Origin and Purpose" section:

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The Boxer was developed in Germany as a medium size security dog.

However, it goes on to add,

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The breed is valued as a spirited pet and guardian of home and family. Developed to serve the multiple purposes of guard, working and escort-dog, he must combine elegance with substance and amble power, not alone for beauty, but to ensure the speed, dexterity and jumping ability essential to arduous hike, riding expedition, police or military duty.

Which reinforces the view of the Boxer as an all-around dog.

The FCI standard, incidentally, in the "Brief Historical Summary" section, talks only about the Bullenbeisser's use in assisting hunters - yet I doubt anyone would take that to mean the Boxer should be first and foremost a hunting dog.  ;)

Maybe this comes down to differences of thoughts on drive.  As has been mentioned, since we know nothing at all about your background, except that you prefer Continental dogs over US ones, it's difficult to know the foundation of your viewpoint.  (This would be a different conversation with Renee, for example, because we know her background and what she does with her working Boxers.)  How would you describe the "drive" of a guard dog?  Obviously the standards themselves aren't explicit, simply listing the traits that make a Boxer good at many things, including guarding.  (I would also add that "guard" drive and "working" drive are likely very different things to many people; there are those who feel Schutzhund, especially the bitework section, is not entirely appropriate for a Boxer since it goes against their temperament to bite.)  How would you describe "work", for that matter, as you used the word in your earliest post on this topic?  We may be coming at the same thing from different directions, so a little more information on your definitions might help clarify matters.

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We may be splitting hairs, but the real question is what do you guys as breeders make sure correct temperament is bred for?
Do you guys breed schutzhund or agility titled dogs? or do you have another way to judge temperament.

I don't breed for Schutzhund or Agility; I don't have any interest in competing in those sports, so I don't specifically title in them.  As I mentioned before, there are breeders who focus more on particular aspects of the Boxer temperament, because that's what they enjoy doing with their dogs.  I think a common mistake is with people thinking that because a majority of Boxer owners choose not to compete in certain venues, the dogs themselves are not able to do so.  Yet I know dogs of the lines I have that are active in obedience, agility, rally, herding, therapy work, service work, and of course conformation; I know scores of them that are wonderful companions, jogging partners, baby sitters, and who often surprise their owners by 'stepping up to the plate', as it were, when an actual threat occurs and their instinctive guarding abilities come through - most Boxer owners I know think their dogs would lick an intruder to death, but when the need arises the dogs show that inherent fearlessness that we so value.  Now I have said many times that I think North American Boxers in general are a little light on the "deliberate and wary with strangers" aspect of the standard - although in this day and age that's not necessarily a bad thing - but again, when push comes to shove, the dogs respond appropriately.  

Of course many breeders go to conformation shows, and observe the dogs both in and, more importantly, outside of the ring: how they react to the loudspeaker as puppies, or when the invariable table or crate gets dropped, etc.; how they greet strange people and strange dogs; how they are just 'hanging out' outside the ring.  It doesn't assess "working drive", per se, but does give you information on their basic temperament.  Seeing parents, sibling, offspring, etc. can also give you a lot of information (for example, the fairly popular sire of old, many of whose descendants - even from different 'other' lines and raised in different parts of the country - have the same spooky temperaments).  
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: Bruins_Boxer on January 05, 2009, 04:33:34 PM
I think that all responsible breeders would be breeding to what they interpret the standard as , for me that may be a bit different than others . BYBs do not care what so ever as long as dog 1 can breed bitch 2 and make some money . That is where I think a lot of the loss in working ability and drive is coming from .
I look for a dog who is stable , not shy . A dog that can recover quickly if frightened . One who can asses a situation and decide if he needs to step up and defend his family .

I have owned a boxer who came from Sch lines , actually his lines were from some of the first sch titled NA boxers . He did have a higher drive than my other boxers but I knew that going in when I got him . And he did obed work , he loved having a job and that was when he was happiest .
On the downside 2 of his littermates were put down for being too aggressive and biting people one child severely . Another littermate had a very edgy temperament another was completely out of control . I contribute this to the owners not being able to handle a dog who's lines come from Sch working lines .
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BoxerWB on January 05, 2009, 04:40:38 PM
Missi - Would you have described your Schutzhund-lined dog as "a handful"... your description above does not sound like you felt that way. Just that he was active and liked to work and you worked with that tendency/personality.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: alncris on January 05, 2009, 04:43:49 PM
Finally!!
Thanks Jen. Very informative and decisive post.
I agree with you on many points. The argument with regard to what  drive is or is not was discussed in another post as I recall and I don't think it was any better clarified than we can do here. I definitely feel that a boxer should be an all around dog. But it was not bred to be a companion dog. it's origins were that of a hunter and a butchers dog, a guardian is my argument. How it hunted is what is unique. It held down the prey with its massive jaws until the hunter came along for the kill.
This is in now way primarily a companion dog first, in my opinion.
 To quote you..."Now I have said many times that I think North American Boxers in general are a little light on the "deliberate and wary with strangers" aspect of the standard - although in this day and age that's not necessarily a bad thing - but again, when push comes to shove, the dogs respond appropriately. "
My experience has been the same. But without focus on this "push to shove" attitude by breeders it will go away.
I would like to at least see the ABC include as part of titling a dog as a champion a temperament test. I understand not everyone has the desire, time or personality to do schutzhund. A temperament test by the ABC/AKC would at least show the propensity of the dog to be useable as a working dog. A boxer that say for example shy's away at a starter pistol should be DQ'd.

BoxerWB, ask Renee what I meant about working dog.

Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BoxerWB on January 05, 2009, 04:53:03 PM
Alncris - Renee and I have talked about working dogs and drives quite a bit, both here and off-forum. In fact, if you looked around the forum a bit, you'd see that Renee has shared information and insights about working dogs in quite a few threads, each of which I've read. I don't believe she's ever said anything that would indicate she considered her dogs a "handful" for an experienced owner.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: Newcastle on January 05, 2009, 05:21:14 PM
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I definitely feel that a boxer should be an all around dog. But it was not bred to be a companion dog. it's origins were that of a hunter and a butchers dog, a guardian is my argument.


So you're saying the Boxer was bred to be a hunter and butcher's dog, but you prefer the guardian aspect of the breed?

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How it hunted is what is unique. It held down the prey with its massive jaws until the hunter came along for the kill.
This is in now way primarily a companion dog first, in my opinion.


I agree - but it is also in no way primarily a guard dog first, either.  And remember that this is the Bullenbeisser that was bred specifically for hunting; the Boxer evolved primarily from those dogs but hunting of that sort was not so common in the mid-1800s when the breed was developing, and the dogs at that time were mostly butcher's and cattle-dealer's dogs.  It was in fact their ability to perform a variety of tasks well that allowed the early breed to survive in a time when many became extinct.

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My experience has been the same. But without focus on this "push to shove" attitude by breeders it will go away.

It hasn't in over 60 years, though.  Boxers were wildly popular in the US in the 1940s and 1950s, and I am quite sure that Bang Away wasn't involved in Schutzhund or any other "work" - and in fact in those days most of the big kennels - the ones whose descendants live on today - raised their dogs as kennel dogs, not house dogs.  (I know how you feel about Bang Away, but the fact remains that pretty well every Boxer in the US goes back to him, yet they have retained their innate ability to discern a threat.)  I don't think it's something to ignore - and if push comes to shove and the dog does *not* respond appropriately, certainly that's a very big something to consider....

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I would like to at least see the ABC include as part of titling a dog as a champion a temperament test.


ABC does not determine what makes a dog a Champion; that's the AKC.  

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A temperament test by the ABC/AKC would at least show the propensity of the dog to be useable as a working dog.

I think that depends on the test, and on one's definition of "work".  The ATTS temperament test, which some breeders do (and more probably would if it were more readily available) gives you an idea of the stability of the dog's basic temperament, but it won't tell you if the dog will excel at agility, or Schutzhund, or therapy work, or what have you.  

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A boxer that say for example shy's away at a starter pistol should be DQ'd.

I'd disagree.  I think a Boxer that shies or startles at a pistol and doesn't recover would be problematic, but I see no reason to exclude a dog for the very appropriate reaction of being startled at a loud, unfamiliar noise.  I would do the same thing!  (As far as the ABC/AKC and conformation go, a dog that won't stand for examination would be excused or disqualified; a dog that was aggressive toward the judge would be disqualified, as well.)
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: alncris on January 05, 2009, 05:39:09 PM
Jen...would love to hook up with you one day and talk boxers. Sounds like I can certainly learn from you. Maybe I can teach you a thing or two as well.
 :thumbsup:

http://atts.org/testdesc.html

I was leading up to the ATTS.
I will agree to disagree with you Jen over the working ability of the US boxer. I will leave it at that both you and Bruins Boxers, have noticed a lack of ability in the breed. I too and many besides have also. I don't want this breed that we so passionately love and argue about to become an overgrown pug.
What Bang-away did was add aesthetics to the breed and take away substance. That substance is necessary in a man stopper.
But as you mentioned in todays litigious society....

The other interesting spin to this is the nature/nurture thing. To simply possess ability means nothing without proper guidance, training and nutrition among tons of other variables I care not to recount now.

BoxerWB put on a bite sleeve and let a dog hit you then tell me if it is not a handful. Go to a schutzhund trial and observe what I mean.
Also ask Renee what Bruins Boxer meant when he wrote "I contribute this to the owners not being able to handle a dog who's lines come from Sch working lines"
Thats exactly what I am talking about.

Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BurningRiver on January 05, 2009, 06:17:23 PM
Interesting. . . I grew up teething on working dogs. . . More specifically, I had various police K9 units in and out of my life. The appropriate working dog is "on" when he needs to be, and "off" when he needs to be. Like a switch. A good working dog knows when he's working and when he's not, and is just as contented laying in front of the fire around children as he is out working in the field.

Having said that a dogs inability to turn "off" can be largely attributed to the quality of the breeding *as well as* the quality of the training program that he or she came from, so there's something to be said there as well. I've seen a couple K9 units that were shameful, as no one but their handlers could come within a 10 foot radius of them. These dogs are certainly a liability not only to the departments that they represented, but also their handlers' families and the civilians that they're supposed to be protecting. (These dogs came up and out of other training programs and other lines.)

Again, the appropriate working temperament is balanced as well, as again, too much drive is sharp, which is just as useless as too little drive (dull).

For me, at this time, I don't have the luxury, time or willingness to train in Schutzhund (or Tracking, or Carting, or Herding, or the various other working disciplines that boxers can and do excel at) so I'm just going to stick with ATTS temperament testing, training for the AKC competitive obedience ring and therapy work to measure my temperaments. But again, Alncris, that's enough about me and my dogs. . . Wanna tell us about you and yours?
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: blynn03 on January 05, 2009, 06:18:52 PM
BoxerWB put on a bite sleeve and let a dog hit you then tell me if it is not a handful. Go to a schutzhund trial and observe what I mean.
Also ask Renee what Bruins Boxer meant when he wrote "I contribute this to the owners not being able to handle a dog who's lines come from Sch working lines"
Thats exactly what I am talking about.

Julia wasn't talking about a working boxer being a handful *when it's working.*  OF COURSE it is a handful while it's working...it wouldn't be a working dog if it wasn't.  But it should also have an on/off switch, and they shouldn't be handful at home, TO AN EXPERIENCED owner...and that's what Julia was talking about.  A dog that can't turn it off isn't of the correct temperment either, IMO.

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I will agree to disagree with you Jen over the working ability of the US boxer. I will leave it at that both you and Bruins Boxers, have noticed a lack of ability in the breed. I too and many besides have also. I don't want this breed that we so passionately love and argue about to become an overgrown pug.

The other interesting spin to this is the nature/nuture thing. To simply possess ability means nothing without proper guidance, training and nutrition among tons of other variables I care not to recount now.

No one here has argued that are differences in the drives of NA vs. Continental boxers.  All everyone is saying is that the differences don't necessarily mean that NA dogs have NO drive...it's certainly unfair to lump so many dogs into one stereotype.  I agree that there is a difference, and that more often than not, Continental dogs are more "drivey" than NA dogs....I just think that it depends on who you talk to whether the difference is good or bad...as each person has a specific type of temperment that they want for their specific purposes.  I have noticed the difference between my two, for sure.

I also agree that I don't want the breed to turn into an "overgrown pug"...but at the same time, we can't have ALL boxers be super high drive, sch. temperment type dogs, because most boxers aren't used for working.  If you think that these dogs don't make good pets, and the majority of boxers bred in this country ARE to be pets....what sense does it make to want all boxers to be this way?   I think these high-drive lines should DEFINITELY DEFINITELY be preserved, I just don't think all lines can be like this.


Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: blynn03 on January 05, 2009, 06:20:20 PM
Interesting. . . I grew up teething on working dogs. . . More specifically, I had various police K9 units in and out of my life. The appropriate working dog is "on" when he needs to be, and "off" when he needs to be. Like a switch. A good working dog knows when he's working and when he's not, and is just as contented laying in front of the fire around children as he is out working in the field.

You beat me to it, and said it better than I did.....but I definitely agree that there needs to be a "switch."
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: Bruins_Boxer on January 05, 2009, 06:43:00 PM
Missi - Would you have described your Schutzhund-lined dog as "a handful"... your description above does not sound like you felt that way. Just that he was active and liked to work and you worked with that tendency/personality

Titan did become more of a "handful" at about 18 months , that is when he really began showing his drive and attitude ( as I called it then ) , he started being a bully and even snapped at me twice ( I invested in a prong then ) . I did overestimate how much different he could be from any other dog, I thought from reading some books I would be able to handle him  as I have had dogs my whole life . I got into some serious training classes and gave him a purpose and also set tougher boundaries for him . looking back I can see how he was more frustrated as he had all this pent up energy and just playing and a walk was not enough . He needed a purpose , I worked with that to end up with a more balanced dog .

Once I was seriously training and learning more about him and what motivated him and how we worked best together I did not really have any more big issues with him .We worked through the issues that were starting and nipped them in the bud . But I can easily see where many other could have had major problems with him .
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BurningRiver on January 05, 2009, 07:58:01 PM
Titan did become more of a "handful" at about 18 months , that is when he really began showing his drive and attitude ( as I called it then ) , he started being a bully and even snapped at me twice ( I invested in a prong then ) .


Or was this just "being a male" and "feeling your oats"? One of my North American bred bitches snapped at me a couple of times when she was testing the waters during her adolescent years. . . She learned quickly that snapping isn't tolerated in my home and we've been just fine since. Also, I recall a couple of my childhood dogs doing this during their adolescent years, a couple GSD's and a Dobe. Really, I don't know that this is something that is particular to Continental boxers.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: alncris on January 05, 2009, 09:07:39 PM
I also agree that I don't want the breed to turn into an "overgrown pug"...but at the same time, we can't have ALL boxers be super high drive, sch. temperment type dogs, because most boxers aren't used for working.  If you think that these dogs don't make good pets, and the majority of boxers bred in this country ARE to be pets....what sense does it make to want all boxers to be this way?   I think these high-drive lines should DEFINITELY DEFINITELY be preserved, I just don't think all lines can be like this.

Is the boxer not a working dog?
Let's face the facts. Dogs are not accessories we wear like clothing or jewelry or are they here in the US?
When we fail to breed to the standard we are in essence changing the standard.

I think times and technology have brought upon an interesting twist to canine. Due to the fact thatwe live in a litigious society and we have state of the art technology  available to us, dogs have ceased to need to fill their purpose to a large extent.
As such a lot of breeds are tamer.
The standard of our beloved breed has evolved over the years as a result.

I pose now this question...what makes a boxer a boxer? Is a boxer that conforms to the standard a boxer by the standard though lacking in temperament?
Is the converse true? is a boxer of correct temperament though lacking the substance or conformation to work a boxer?
When you consider all the possible iterations I want to hear what everyone here believes makes a boxer a boxer?


Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BurningRiver on January 05, 2009, 09:36:29 PM
I pose now this question...what makes a boxer a boxer? Is a boxer that conforms to the standard a boxer by the standard though lacking in temperament?
Is the converse true? is a boxer of correct temperament though lacking the substance or conformation to work a boxer?
When you consider all the possible iterations I want to hear what everyone here believes makes a boxer a boxer?

Quite frankly, alncris, I'm hesitant to share with you what my ideal of a boxer is since I have yet to hear what yours is. Please share with us a bit of history about your line, your kennel and/or your dogs.

I'm still waiting. . .
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: Newcastle on January 05, 2009, 10:06:48 PM
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I will leave it at that both you and Bruins Boxers, have noticed a lack of ability in the breed.

I don't think I ever said that.  "Less working drive than Continental Boxers" is not the same to me as "lack of ability".  

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What Bang-away did was add aesthetics to the breed and take away substance.

We will have to agree to disagree there. :)  Bang Away was obviously more smooth and stylish than many of the earlier Boxers, but he appears to have had ample substance; the difference was that he also had the elegance the standard called for to balance it out.  Certainly his offspring - including the Salgray "F" litter, which quadrupled up on Bang Away - had ample substance.  I think the trend toward elegance started later, in the '70s or so.

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That substance is necessary in a man stopper.

If the man stopper uses force, yes; again, though, we get into "not the Boxer's primary purpose" and "not a physical man stopper" in any case. ;)

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The other interesting spin to this is the nature/nurture thing. To simply possess ability means nothing without proper guidance, training and nutrition among tons of other variables I care not to recount now.

I wouldn't say it means nothing, but certainly environment has a profound influence on the expression of temperament.  Again, the fact that Boxers aren't competing in various sports doesn't mean that they can't.  Take the Herding Instinct tests the Boxer Club of San Fernando Valley held a couple of weekends ago; 15 Boxers entered, with varying degrees of obedience training (from none to UD-level), but no prior experience with sheep.  13 of the dogs passed the test, including some conformation Champions, and the evaluator was duly impressed. :)  (More on that here: http://www.bcsfv.com/Events.htm)  Obviously these dogs possess the ability; though most of them were not trained or guided in the sport, that ability shone through given the opportunity.

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When we fail to breed to the standard we are in essence changing the standard.

No - we're simply failing to breed to the standard.  If all Boxer breeders ignore the standard, then perhaps your point would make more sense.  That "we" are failing to breed to the standard, however, is only as related to *your* interpretation of the standard as far as this discussion goes.  The high drive that is appropriate for Schutzhund is not necessarily the correct temperament for a Boxer, as we've been discussing here. 

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The standard of our beloved breed has evolved over the years as a result.

The standard has evolved, that much is true.  The 1902 Boxer standard, for example, described the temperament as thus:

"The Boxer is an alert, devoted, easily trained dog, very lively in temperament. Although his strength and agility enable him to compete against any assailant, he is never a bully. As a defender of the person and the property of his master, he is famous. The Boxer loves water passionately, is an excellent retriever and a good ratter. He is an indefatigable companion on foot, bicycle or horse, and also a good room, house or estate dog."

Again, this is describing an all-around dog. :)

From there, I'll have to agree with Jess; we've all shared quite a bit with you, yet you've not given us any information on your dogs, your experience, lines, etc.  Until you're willing to do that, we have nothing by which to put your thoughts into context, and there seems to be little value to continuing these discussions.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BurningRiver on January 06, 2009, 06:21:28 AM
Quote from: alncris
The argument with regard to what drive is or is not was discussed in another post as I recall and I don't think it was any better clarified than we can do here.

I did want to touch on something here though as I've seen it repeatedly noted in this thread. I'd argue that "high drive" (and I have interpreted this to mean high drives all around - keep in mind there are four main categories when discussing drive) is not appropriate in any dog working in protection. We've had the previous discussion regarding sharpness, and at the time, I wasn't using my words correctly enough to state it as simply as this: Sharpness can be summed up pretty succinctly as a dog that retains exceedingly high drive in all four of the main categories (fight, flight, pack and prey). Obviously, with one of the drives being avoidance (flight), a dog that is high in all drives would be an extremely poor worker, and sharpness, in any case is not valued in any protection prospect. Given this, extremely high drive is not appropriate for any working breed, including GSD's, and stability in drives is valued above all else.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BoxerPerson on January 06, 2009, 07:50:24 AM
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you've not given us any information on your dogs, your experience, lines, etc.  Until you're willing to do that, we have nothing by which to put your thoughts into context, and there seems to be little value to continuing these discussions.

I read & skimmed this thread yesterday, but I finally gave it some serious attention this morning, and I must agree!
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: alncris on January 06, 2009, 08:40:37 AM
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you've not given us any information on your dogs, your experience, lines, etc.  Until you're willing to do that, we have nothing by which to put your thoughts into context, and there seems to be little value to continuing these discussions.

I read & skimmed this thread yesterday, but I finally gave it some serious attention this morning, and I must agree!

I am irrevelant to the question at hand.

How does one determine in general any dogs capacity for work. Since this is a boxer  specific site, I would like to know how breeders maintain this charateristic alive in the breed.
Do breeders of quality US boxers figure this into the equation?
or is just expected that the trait is passed along by luck.
UK and Continental boxer breeders often have working titles. I know there is controversy there as well since some are accused of "buying" their IPO's or whatever.
We have beautiful dogs stateside, but even our top champs rarely work them. I am sure some have the correct temperament. But that to me does not show a direct effort on part of breeders to breed for it.
This not only applies to boxers, but most US breeders.
To me it is an important trait and important consideration if I were to purchase a US dog.
Ofcourse I question the need for it anymore in todays society. But nonetheless if we are to remain true to the boxer, we must demand this from breeders.
I didn't mean to upset people, but instead illicit knowledgeable responses and provoke thought and concern.
It is obvious we all love this breed, and I remind everyone that we are playing for the same team.
Since my questions and opinion are controversial and hurtful to some I will desist posting anymore on this topic and leave it for you,collectively, to think about this.
I am not all knowing, or a US boxer hater, having owned many great US boxers. However observations I have made have been confirmed by quite a few people.
The boxer abroad is considered the joke of the working class by some serious persons in the dog world and it offends me.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: Bruins_Boxer on January 06, 2009, 08:45:10 AM
Or was this just "being a male" and "feeling your oats"? One of my North American bred bitches snapped at me a couple of times when she was testing the waters during her adolescent years. . . . Also, I recall a couple of my childhood dogs doing this during their adolescent years, a couple GSD's and a Dobe. Really, I don't know that this is something that is particular to Continental boxers

Yes, maybe His age and feeling his oats may have something to do with it , but by that age is when I really noticed that things were getting out of hand , probably had been earlier but I did not recognize it. I had another male also at the time and they were nothing alike . By that age he did not really seem to have an off switch . His protection , and prey drive really kicked up a notch , he was also not backing down from things , and just getting harder to keep in control .
Through training I learned how to work with him and was able to get him to turn off when needed .
When I add my experiences with him and then what happened with some of his littermates is how I base my opinion of some doge with a higher drive .
And no I do not think this is something particular to continental boxers .
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: Newcastle on January 06, 2009, 09:21:44 AM
I'm deleting/editing some posts which are crossing the line into personal issues and member moderation.  This is a public forum and so anyone is free to post to threads and express their opinions, so long as they follow the rules.  As well, it is up to the administrators to decide if a post is inappropriate; if someone has an issue with a post, there is a "report" function that will send a message to the administrators so that they can evaluate it.

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The boxer abroad is considered the joke of the working class by some serious persons in the dog world and it offends me.

Then you should be having this discussion with those persons, rather than with people here who believe and have seen that Boxers are quite capable of performing a variety of tasks, given the desire of their owners, as was the intention of the breed's developers.

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I am irrevelant to the question at hand.

Untrue.  One cannot have a meaningful discussion without some context.  I can discuss drive with Jess, or Renee, for example, because I know their backgrounds and that they've done various forms of training and work with their dogs.  We may disagree on some things, but it's easier to come to an understanding about our different points of view because we are not hiding anything from each other.

On a more paranoid note, for all we know you're a rabid animal rights activist searching for ammunition to support a ban on the breeding of Boxers.  (That's really not a leap; something very similar happened in the UK with the "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" program.)  

Besides which, frankly it's just rude not to give an introduction when joining a public forum, especially when one has been asked to do so for several months.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BurningRiver on January 06, 2009, 10:20:32 AM
And for that matter, you may be one who tries to sound like you know what you're talking about with no demonstrated experience to back it up. We'd like to think that this isn't the case, however, without much to go by, it's easy to have our doubts.

Further, I've had quite a bit of correspondence from the other side of the pond, both in working lines and out of them, and none of these people have considered American boxers to be the "joke" that you claim. I'll also argue that the majority of dogs coming out of the UK do not have various working titles. . . In fact, I've seen very few, so I'm not really sure of what you're getting at there. These statements make it seem as if you're trying to do nothing here but stir the proverbial pot.

I've more than answered your questions regarding how I'm measuring proper temperament in my dogs. The least you can do is have the common courtesy to do the same for us.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: alncris on January 06, 2009, 11:18:32 AM
Burning river re-read my post. I never said that the US boxer is the joke of the working class. I was repeating a sentiment in the working dog community and it was the THE boxer is the joke. That means all boxers.

Jen, so if I give you my bio you will take it at face value and it will be proof positive that I am not a rabid animal activist...lol

Bad logic...
If you believe that I have a bridge I want to sell you.
I have heard it all now.
The proof is in the pudding.

This is exactly the reason I don't give my information, because people can't handle the truth of the condition of our dogs in the US.
It would detract from the focus of the matter and zero in on picking me apart.
The reaction of many here speaks for itself.

I have a bite sleeve I am willing to loan so that you can evaluate your own dog that I will send postage paid both ways so that you can see what your dogs are made of. No need to report to me or anyone what happens in the privacy of your backyard.
I could care less about the personal agendas of persons. I care about the breed and its betterment.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: Bugsys Mom on January 06, 2009, 11:22:02 AM
alncris-Are you a breeder?
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: blynn03 on January 06, 2009, 11:36:38 AM
...because people can't handle the truth of the condition of our dogs in the US.

I don't disagree that there is a difference in the drive levels between NA and Continental boxers...not at all.  I think the biggest disagreement in this thread between almost all parties involved is not whether or not there is a difference, but what the correct boxer temperment should be.

So my question is....which type of drive is it that NA dogs are lacking?  This is a sincere question....as the answer differs depending upon who it comes from.

My first guess that it's not a LACK but possibly an EXCESS of one type of drive (compared to their Continental counterparts, not to other breeds).
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: Newcastle on January 06, 2009, 11:41:41 AM
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Jen, so if I give you my bio you will take it at face value and it will be proof positive that I am not a rabid animal activist...lol

No, but it would at least be an act of good faith.

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This is exactly the reason I don't give my information, because people can't handle the truth of the condition of our dogs in the US.

Not at all.  We disagree with your assessment - "truth" is subjective in this case - and without any information to help us understand your perspective, we have no reason to give your views much credence, especially compared to the vast amount of experience and knowledge available here from those who we know have trained, worked, bred, and lived with Boxers of various bloodlines for many years.  

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It would detract from the focus of the matter and zero in on picking me apart.
The reaction of many here speaks for itself.

Well, no - it should be a different thread entirely, really, in the "Introductions" section, so wouldn't have any bearing on this discussion except to give some context and weight (or not) to your opinions.

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I could care less about the personal agendas of persons. I care about the breed and its betterment.

One would think, then, that you would be willing to open and honest discussion, rather than simply making proclamations and demanding responses from behind a wall of secrecy.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BoxerWB on January 06, 2009, 12:01:39 PM
Tell me what your experiences are with working dogs and drives.

You made this request of us - why is it now improper that we make the same request of you? You've only said your dogs "aren't the best." - a far cry from sharing experiences.

If all you want to offer is strong opinions with nothing to back it up, why not write a blog, where the point is to speak to an audience, rather than have a conversation?
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: RocketBoxer on January 06, 2009, 12:28:34 PM
I was trying to stay away from this thread - because I didn't want to post anything until alncris posts an introduction.........but I did want to say this......

Firstly, I am not saying that US boxers have the same drive as Euro-boxers. I have never met a full-blooded Euro-boxer, so I can't say. I own a half-Euro/half-US boxer and I see some temperament differences with my girls (but nothing huge) but that is the limit of my experience, and I grew up in South Africa with a lot of different boxers - mostly who had their roots back to UK and Euro lines.

This past weekend I was at a show and I had the priviledge of watching a beautiful obedience boxer (conformation titled too). Everytime I see his handler and him in the ring I am inspired because they are just amazing to watch. This team was competing in the large, VERY competitive Open B class, amongst a lot of OTCH handlers. Both days they placed in the class (a 2nd place and a 4th place).

I know that if I owned this dog, he would not work for me the same way. Simply because I don't have the same handler skills.......maybe one day?

So, I ask myself - isn't part of our problem that a lot of us here in the US simply don't know how to properly train our dogs? Either people aren't interested or are just learning?

When I look around at the dogs some of my friends own I see some boxers who probably wouldn't be interested in doing much of anything, but I do also see boxers who I think would make incredible performance dogs in the right hands.

My 2 cents worth.....

Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BuckAndCalliesBro on January 06, 2009, 12:33:40 PM
Alncris, this isn't a poker game.  There's really no need to play your cards so close to the vest.  You seem to be intelligent, well spoken, and articulate.  So why dance around the numerous requests to give your information?  I can almost assure you that they were made in an effort to flesh out some context in the minds of respondents regarding you, being the individual they were talking with.  And even so, judgments about your introduction or lack thereof aside, if you had just kept to posing the question then you wouldn't perhaps have gotten some of the responses that you did.  But when you rebut with your own views it prompts your audience to consider where these views are coming from.  I just read this entire thread, and I assure you I have no dog in this hunt, as I'm not a breeder or a trainer.  But, IMO, no one is going to take your crendentials/story and use it as fodder for the shredder.  We all just like to have some idea of who we are talking to.  :thumbsup:
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BurningRiver on January 06, 2009, 01:03:00 PM
Right, so apparently, you do have something to hide, as if you were nearly as accomplished as you allude to, you'd have no issues in being completely open about your identity. Instead, you choose to hide your identity to us, which leaves us to nothing more than our assumptions about your experience. Fine. I have my assumptions. And I'll share them.

Apparently you feel that bite work is *the* definition of a good working dog, which is the view usually held by novices. In fact, bark and hold is much more valued in well run programs -- the *very last* resort for the dog should be to resort to biting.

Second, most I've spoken with have said that they simply choose to stick with GSD's because 1) they know the lines, and 2) while a boxer might be more reliable on task and overall a better worker with much more speed, precision and accuracy, they're stubborn so they take longer to train and 3) GSD's are better with repetition.

Third, I know exactly how my bitches are on the sleeve. One is a piano biter, another has a soft mouth, and oddly enough, the third and sharp tempered one can hold like you wouldn't believe.

So there's my assumption regarding your experience with working dogs (of any breed). If you'd like to change that perception, anti up and spill the details about your identity, Nimmerland.

Frankly, my one last assumption is that you are nothing more than a troll looking for a place to play. Have fun.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: blynn03 on January 06, 2009, 02:20:47 PM
The question I asked wasn't about you...it was about boxers.  I was interested in hearing from anyone what they think the answer is...

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So my question is....which type of drive is it that NA dogs are lacking?  This is a sincere question....as the answer differs depending upon who it comes from.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BuckAndCalliesBro on January 06, 2009, 02:31:37 PM
The more responses you post like that alncris, the more you look like the troll that Jess, BurningRiver, referred to.  People start getting riled when obviously inflamatory terms like comical, apalling, and sad state of affairs get applied to them.  That's when things start getting to the point where people are showing animosity.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: Bumpy on January 06, 2009, 06:57:10 PM
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p23/EBumpy/troll.jpg)
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: alncris on January 06, 2009, 07:10:30 PM
 :roflol:
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BoxerPerson on January 06, 2009, 07:52:21 PM
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p23/EBumpy/troll.jpg)

Good one Bump!
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: alncris on January 06, 2009, 07:54:40 PM
 :laugh4:
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: jinxx on January 06, 2009, 07:59:18 PM
ooooh- the evil pugs

How's their bite work?
Better than a NA boxers?
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: Patti on January 06, 2009, 08:01:29 PM
ooooh- the evil pugs

How's their bite work?
Better than a NA boxers?
:roflol:
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BoxerPerson on January 06, 2009, 08:01:46 PM
Maybe she is a pug breeder and wishes she had boxers???

BTW...I love pugs too ;)
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: alncris on January 06, 2009, 08:02:20 PM
ooooh- the evil pugs

How's their bite work?
Better than a NA boxers?

Hey Jinxx, How big is Cash? I like him a lot.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: jinxx on January 06, 2009, 08:03:25 PM
oversized, unhealthy and not available
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: alncris on January 06, 2009, 08:07:16 PM
oversized, unhealthy and not available

Too bad so sad.

He still looks great. A better mask would make him perfect.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: jinxx on January 06, 2009, 08:09:49 PM
darker  pigment or flash?

Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: alncris on January 06, 2009, 08:11:03 PM
I think darker pigment.
But that is exactly what a boxer should look like.

I hope you were kidding, but if not I am sorry to hear that he is sick.
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: jinxx on January 06, 2009, 08:46:58 PM
well, Thank you
I do have issues with pigment or lack thereof- a huge peeve of mine
(and flash- you picked the right answer. lol, You don't want to get me started on that)

No, wasn't kidding on his health
He has AS and "suspect" cardiomyopathy, along with a bunch of other issues.

Oh, and he's 27.5"  and a "handful"
He'd make a great working dog in ANY aspect had I been so inclined to  go that route
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: aquagirl900 on January 06, 2009, 11:21:01 PM
I just want to say...that troll/pug exchange back there made me laugh out loud...
Title: Boxer Drive
Post by: BuckAndCalliesBro on January 07, 2009, 02:23:14 AM
Hey now....I like pugs...as Eisenhower once said, "It ain't the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog that counts"....ya gotta love that pugs seem to have no idea that they have such little chasis'....  :laugh4:
Title: Re: Boxer Drive
Post by: markwantsaboxer on March 13, 2010, 02:15:12 PM
I have been searching on the Internet for information on Boxers as boar hunting dogs -- their original function -- and I have found a couple of forums where a few individuals in Europe assert that the Boxer makes a great dog for boar hunting.  However, a few respondents who have Boxers claim that their own Boxers would not hunt if their lives depended on it.  :roflol:

http://www.vegsoc.org.au/forum_messages.asp?Thread_ID=2334&Topic_ID=8

http://www.faqs.org/qa/qa-21242.html

My guess is that we find here a temperamental difference between Boxers from different regions.  I assume that Boxers used for SchH are probably good for boar hunting (plenty of breeds are, apparently) just because they are a little more 'drivey' in terms of prey drive and are a little 'harder'. 

(I posted this also in the thread on working Boxers....)
Title: Re: Boxer Drive
Post by: AnnF on May 07, 2010, 10:49:27 PM
The discussion about Schutzhund drives is confusing in light that there are are just  very few breeder who

adhere tp the US Boxer Association Standards
Title: Re: Boxer Drive
Post by: markwantsaboxer on January 01, 2012, 09:27:25 PM
I have been searching on the Internet for information on Boxers as boar hunting dogs -- their original function -- and I have found a couple of forums where a few individuals in Europe assert that the Boxer makes a great dog for boar hunting.  However, a few respondents who have Boxers claim that their own Boxers would not hunt if their lives depended on it.  :roflol:

http://www.vegsoc.org.au/forum_messages.asp?Thread_ID=2334&Topic_ID=8

http://www.faqs.org/qa/qa-21242.html

My guess is that we find here a temperamental difference between Boxers from different regions.  I assume that Boxers used for SchH are probably good for boar hunting (plenty of breeds are, apparently) just because they are a little more 'drivey' in terms of prey drive and are a little 'harder'. 


(I posted this also in the thread on working Boxers....)


I just thought that i'd start out the new year by stating that I read that in Australia the premier boar hunting dogs are Boxer mixes and Great Dane mixes. The Boxers are usually crossed with Bull Terrier, and the Danes are crossed often with Bullmastiff. The large prey that these dog breeds were created to catch no longer prevail in Europe, but there is still plenty of giant boar in Australia.

Crossing a short-muzzled breed with a long-muzzled breed in both cases solves the problem of heat exhaustion. In both cases also a rather lithe, athletic German dog is being crossed with a very muscular British dog.

Now, these crossbreeds could be what Australians resort to if there is a lack of American Bulldogs or Dogo Argentinos, the premier catch dogs of the world.

But like Potzi used to say on "Happy Days", "I still got it! I still got it!"

The Boxer still has it!  :rave: