researching pedigrees

[Bruins_Boxer]

Where does everyone go to research pedigrees of dogs you are interested in?
I use ;
world pedigrees , OFA , the ABC SOM/DOM list , and look for the breeders websites , and e-mail.

A problem I am having is there is many times so little info out there about certain dogs . TO me if a dog is a Ch ( or just a great example of the breed ) a great producer and is offered at stud ther one would want that info out there .

[fairview Boxers]

I use the same as you, PLUS, I email or call some trusted friends......  With  my limited experience in the show world and with breeders, I like having some friends that I know I can count on to tell me things about certain dogs or lines....  In particular I have two friends I count on the most for this.  One has been a long time breeder, the other is SOOOOO knowledgeable about structure and judging the breed..... 

I also use searches for the name of the particular dog I am looking at, and his ancestors to get as much info as I can..   I also like to look at 1/2 siblings to see if anything popped up there!

[Bruins_Boxer]

There is one male I am trying to find more info on but he has American ,Canadian and UK in his pedgiree .
Finding just Amer is hard enopgh but this is nearly impossible .

[Lemko Boxer]

I too utilize exhaustive internet searches, look at the ABC SOM/DOM list and talk to breeder friends I trust. I've found that some breeders are quite open to sharing info with you if you ask them directlly... Sadly I've come across many others that are unwilling to share even basic info about dogs in a pedigree or their descendents.

For example one breeder (long time breeder from a well known kennel you would all recognize) sat down with me one day to go over a pedigree of a male she bred that I was interested in possibly using on one of my girls. She wrote down and shared the age and cause of death of almost every dog in the five-generation pedigree... Good, bad or otherwise. I was amazed at the openness and willingness to share the info about the dogs who didn't live as long as we all wish boxers should along with the ones living into double digits.

Another breeder (again, long time well-known and one you'd know) point blank told me it didn't matter what "x" stud dog's offspring died from. And this was a dog I'd used and gotten offspring with good health testing results, etc, so my query wasn't because of a health issue I was seeing. This breeder just didn't feel she should share info that might help me move forward (and that I would keep to myself at that) as I make decisions on where to go forward with what I have in my pedigree.

So far, most of the best info I have gotten is from older long-time breeders who been in this for a long time and have seen the generations of boxers before I was breeding. If more breeders were willing to share like the first on the I mentioned, the breed would be in a better place IMO. If you know the good and the bad, and where it is, you know how to use the pedigree, and more importantly where not to double up on something negative.

[Lisa]

I'm surprised an organization like the AKC or a Boxer club doesn't put out an annual "stud book" breeders could advertise in and use to search for dogs.  This is done for Thoroughbred horses by their registry, the Jockey Club, and almost any horse anyone would have heard of and want to breed to has a page in the book with a conformation photo and lots of other information.  It would be great to have something like that for Boxers.

[Lisa]

Here is the advertisement for Artax the Thoroughbred I named my dog after:

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stallion-directory/stallion.aspx?stallion_no=4004223

Through that directory stallions can be found by name, location, stud fee and various other criteria.  It would be great to have something similar for Boxers, and all dog breeds.

[Newcastle]

I use all of the above.   I also Google dog names, and use the AKC website to find littermates and Google them.  Old Boxer Rings and Boxer Reviews, ABC catalogs, the World of the Boxer book, and the UK Record Book, come into play, too.  A few years ago I sent a request for suggestions to the ShowBoxer list, and then shared them will a small group of trusted breeder friends for their input.  That was exceptionally informative!

I'm surprised an organization like the AKC or a Boxer club doesn't put out an annual "stud book" breeders could advertise in and use to search for dogs.

The Boxer Ring puts out an annual Stud Dog issue; it's nowhere near as inclusive as the Thoroughbred page, and doesn't of course include every stud dog out there, but it is at least a start!

[BurningRiver]

So far, most of the best info I have gotten is from older long-time breeders who been in this for a long time and have seen the generations of boxers before I was breeding. If more breeders were willing to share like the first on the I mentioned, the breed would be in a better place IMO. If you know the good and the bad, and where it is, you know how to use the pedigree, and more importantly where not to double up on something negative.

I agree with Jess. Talk to people. My best sources for pedigree information have always been my mentor and friends.

[Lisa]

The Boxer Ring puts out an annual Stud Dog issue; it's nowhere near as inclusive as the Thoroughbred page, and doesn't of course include every stud dog out there, but it is at least a start!

Great, thanks.  Is it online, or only available as a hard copy?

So far, most of the best info I have gotten is from older long-time breeders who been in this for a long time and have seen the generations of boxers before I was breeding. If more breeders were willing to share like the first on the I mentioned, the breed would be in a better place IMO. If you know the good and the bad, and where it is, you know how to use the pedigree, and more importantly where not to double up on something negative.

I agree with Jess. Talk to people. My best sources for pedigree information have always been my mentor and friends.

I think it's great that you two and some other breeders are willing and eager to share information in an effort to improve the breed, and think Boxers and other breeds could improve significantly, faster, the sooner more information is made public so people wouldn't so much need to know the right people and talk to them to make informed decisions.  It's not just breeders who want this information but pet puppy buyers, who could better influence more breeders to breed healthier dogs if we knew or could more easily find out more about different dogs and lines.  I'm sure it will happen with time.

[BurningRiver]

I think it's great that you two and some other breeders are willing and eager to share information in an effort to improve the breed, and think Boxers and other breeds could improve significantly, faster, the sooner more information is made public so people wouldn't so much need to know the right people and talk to them to make informed decisions.  It's not just breeders who want this information but pet puppy buyers, who could better influence more breeders to breed healthier dogs if we knew or could more easily find out more about different dogs and lines.  I'm sure it will happen with time.

I do know quite a few breeders who include this information in their puppy packets. Sometimes, it's just too much info to put out there, and, to be honest, I'm not 100% confident in the accuracy of my information since it all has been word of mouth. And, remember, there were the incidences where I was told that a dog lived to 14 by those who loved him, yet others were saying 11. By publicly posting this information, you're essentially posting information that doesn't belong to you. . . What's a breeder to do when they have different information from two different sources?

And, frankly, it's no one's business except mine and people who are interested in my dogs. If someone is doing pedigree research and looking into a dog that is related to one of mine for their own purposes, all they need to do is write an email or pick up the phone and call (which, I'm more than happy to talk about, and I've done a number of times myself to get more info). This is the way it used to work before the internet. 

[Lisa]

Information with puppy packets is a bit late for researching what puppy to buy.  I'm not talking so much about individual breeders sharing information but a public database with a lot more information than is available now, not just age of death. 

The point of view that this information is private and trying to keep people from obtaining it is detrimental to the breed overall IMO.  Even if by looking at a pedigree someone could tell who to contact about every dog and how to reach them, and all of those people had the information and would respond honestly, that is a far less efficient method of research than just having the information out there for everyone already, and less reliable since like you wrote then it's just based on what one person says/writes.  The internet is here now and we should use it.

[BurningRiver]

It's private, because it may be inaccurate, not because it's a big secret.

As I said before, should someone email or pick up the phone and call, I'll happily share, but I don't feel that it's my business to be putting (potentially false) information out there for all to see. I will openly discuss everything and anything about my dogs with someone via phone call or email, and not just at they point that they're taking a puppy home.

That aside, there are various websites dedicated to this type of thing, although I think we can all agree that they're not exactly a complete view (and, at any rate, the time to maintain something of that magnitude would be insurmountable).

http://www.apexboxers.com/ddc.html

http://www.worldpedigrees.com/breedpages/xBoxer.aspx

Boxer Underground used to publish a list of Health Checked Boxers, but I can't get it to come up at present.

I think what we're really discussing here is the ease of obtaining this information, and I can't really support that it's all that difficult to pick up the phone, send an email or do a Google search.

[fairview Boxers]

I think that depends on what information you are talking about!  When breeding we don't just research for the health of dogs in a pedigree.  We research temperment and type, and that doesn't always need to be shared if it won't "affect" the particular dog you are looking at.  
You have to remember to that until the early 90's many of the testing wasn't availble, and that breeders that were breeding for a decade or more before this testing became availble don't usually use it.  They are necessarily doing a justice, but you can't actually blame them if they have been breeding for 50 years, and their methods have already given them longevity and winners....  The old saying "don't fix what isn't broken"....
I was mad at a few when I learned they didn't test NOW... but after talking to some other breeders, I can KINDA understand why they don't!


PERSONALLY, if something happens to one of MY Boxers or their progeny, I would post it (as I have with Cass), HOWEVER< it isn't my place to post a health issue I discovered or was told of someone elses dog.  That is their place to do it!!!!!  Not my right!

[fairview Boxers]

It's private, because it may be inaccurate, not because it's a big secret.

Something else that I tell people that call me, I am upfront with what I have learned of my lines, BUT I explain that all my info is from other breeders and not necessarily directly from the owner of said dog... 

World Pedigrees USED to list, DOB and DOD, along with a few health screenings, but I have noticed that that is missing now, I am curious to why......

[Newcastle]

A large part of the problem there, I think, is the  tremendous variation in opinions of what various tests mean.  You've seen the discussions we've had on the ARVC DNA test; some breeders tout a "negative" result as if it means the dog is 100% free and clear of ARVC and always will be, though nothing could be further from the truth.  Others may have a homozygous positive dog but still feel that based on pedigree, longevity, and holter history it's still a good breeding prospect.  (And often the first will vilify the second, which is another reason people are often loathe to share test results - in this case, you're less damned if you don't than if you do!)  Then there are holter numbers; there's a breeder who is known for repeating bad holters until she gets the results she wants, and only publishing that number.  The buyer sees the "good" holter numbers and thinks they're getting a puppy from clear parents, even though that dog might have had 5,000 VPCs on a previous holter.   Some breeders also only holter once, or only publish the first results, and the buyers figure that's adequate; meanwhile the breeder who holters annually and lists all results, which may include some 'grey area' numbers that the cardiologist has reviewed and said are likely not related to ARVC, is passed over or considered "unethical" because of those higher numbers.  Plus, a dog is so much more than its numbers; a fantastic 12-year-old dog who was stunning physically, had good hips, thyroid, and Doppler, but had 500 VPCs on his most recent holter at 11.5 years old may still be an excellent breeding prospect - but having that 500 out there might eliminate him for many who aren't looking at the big picture.

Most pet puppy buyers are not going to bother checking with the owners/breeders of the grandparents, great-grandparents, etc., nor really should they need to.  The breeder will have done that research and will have the relevant information, and if the buyer doesn't trust the breeder, they shouldn't be buying a puppy from them anyway.  (That's not to say the buyer can't or shouldn't contact the owners/breeders of past generations, just that it's not generally necessary.)  The buyer should have researched enough to know what tests are recommended, which should be repeated and how often, and to ask for hard-copy documentation of the results.  They should discuss longevity and health history with the breeder, and may wish to contact the stud dog owner, but I'm not sure there's really a need to go beyond that.  (And let's face it - most buyers don't even do that much!)