Bitches - How old is too old..

[Hanna Banana]

On my foreign forum there was a litter that was whelped by an 8 year old bitch.   The bitch delivered natural, fast and nursing all puppies.  8 pups.  She a month ago competed in a working event and has been health tested ect - in great condition.  Competed in IPO3 at Atibox placed withing the top 10.

Some people disgreed with the age of the bitch being bred (too old), and others said they would rather see a healthy 8 year old in perfect condition breeding than a 2 year old kennel dog, and thinks each female should be independantly evaluated.

Wondering your thoughts on this - is there a limit?

[Bugsys Mom]

Im no expert, but i would think that in all species the older the female the more chance of having issues with birth.  I do think that as long as she was health tested and still active she would be in better shape than most.

Personally, I don't know if i would want to chance it.

[Renee]

I probably wouldn't do it, but you read the post - most young bitches should have it so easy.

Sensitive subject for me personally for sure - when you own that working bitch, it's hard to stop everything for 6-12 months for a litter.    It's easier I'm sure when you own 2-3 and having one take so much time off isn't a big deal, I don't know.  It was a VERY big deal for me - and Josie was 5, which is NOT young for a first litter.  And I had some pressure to repeat the breeding when people saw what it produced, but I had no interest in personally taking another year off or taking any risk.

Josies mother was 7 when Josie was born no problems, healthy puppies, etc etc. 

[BoxerPerson]

When they hit my age

[blynn03]

Josies mother was 7 when Josie was born no problems, healthy puppies, etc etc. 

She just died earlier this year at like almost 16, right?  RIP, Xenia.   

[BoxerWB]

The ABC code says 6 years old - do we know what data or veterinary recommendations they based that on?

[Hanna Banana]

And the code also says 18 months.   

Bitches should be bred only between the ages of eighteen months and six years and should not whelp more than twice in any three consecutive estrus cycles.

I be more comfortable breeding a healthy 6 year old then an 18 month old any day of the week.       I personally think my preferable breeding age would be 4-5 years old.   Prob in the median.   It gives time for the dog to mature, you to test at two and then again after two.

However I think with some kennels, esp some overseas where they are seeing their lines live to 14 and 15, 8 may not be an issue at all.   Here I think we say six, due to the fact the life spans are shorter.   I read that the AKC will not accept litter registrations from bitches younger than 8 months or older than 12 years.

[jinxx]

I be more comfortable breeding a healthy 6 year old then an 18 month old any day of the week.       I personally think my preferable breeding age would be 4-5 years old.   Prob in the median.   It gives time for the dog to mature, you to test at two and then again after two.

Ditto that!
Not only are they more physically mature- esp with slow maturing lines, but they are also more mentally mature.

I've gone in a different direction in stud search from what Z was at 2 years vs her being 3.5- huge difference physically.

and while they ARE a smart breed- they really don't grow into their brains until they are at least 3, if not later.
Forever mentally puppies 

I just can't see a 2 year old bitch being a mom at that age when she's still just a pup herself.

I'm all for breeding at maturity, esp since one would have had the time to really know their dog inside and out via health testing and physical changes.

A cut off age- I'm comfy with 6 or slightly older.

and I do completely agree with Renee about not wanted to stop their "jobs" to breed them.
 

[BoxerWB]

Heather - I'd go old over young too, but my question was to the reasons behind the ABCs decision. I thought that might an interesting addition to the conversation.

[Shaeward]

However I think with some kennels, esp some overseas where they are seeing their lines live to 14 and 15, 8 may not be an issue at all.

Exactly! When the average age of death is 12-14 yrs, is 8 really old? It's my understanding that breeding bitches up to 8 yrs old is common in the UK as well. Depending on the bitch, I'd not have a problem breeding at that age.

I just can't see a 2 year old bitch being a mom at that age when she's still just a pup herself.

Ruby produced her first litter at 2 yrs 5 months old and her second at a month shy of 5. She was a wonderful mom both times...couldn't tell much difference except she wasn't as protective or worried about leaving the puppies the second time around (but that seems to be common with second litters). Mentally, Ruby was more mature at 2 than Poppins was. Not so sure I would have bred Poppins at 2. Wendy will be 2 the end of Oct. She's matured a lot over the last 4-5 months...if I had a clue about what I was going to do with her breeding wise (and she was done showing), I think I'd be comfortable breeding her at 2 as well. I feel deciding when to start breeding a bitch depends upon the individual just as much as it does when deciding it's time to stop.